FTL Discussion Thread

[StragaSevera]

some fundamental changes to core gameplay can be an absolute deal breaker for certain types of player.

So, you think that if a change displeases any certain type of player, it must not be done? Well, it is one way to look at game development...

The only way they can possibly understand it is if it actually affects them personally. It almost makes me wish that in the next dev diary the devs remove or change something that is equally game-breaking for them. Then finally the penny might drop.

Well, if they will remove, for example, ship designer and replace it with pre-built ships, then I simply will continue to play 1.8.3. When I will be bored, I will install some mods from 1.8.3 community, and when I will be bored by them, I will either write my own mod, or leave Stellaris. Basically, the fate of every game - be played, then be forgotten. *shrugs*

 

[Lucian667]

So, you think that if a change displeases any certain type of player, it must not be done? Well, it is one way to look at game development...

Depends on the change. Scrapping all FTL options and forcing starlanes onto players who bought Stellaris ONLY because it (loudly) advertised the option for free movement is definitely something that should not be altered in a game 1.5 years past full release. Its crossing a line that would even be considered a radical move in an early access game. In a fully mature game its simply outrageous.

 

[StragaSevera]

Depends on the change. Scrapping all FTL options and forcing starlanes on to players who bought Stellaris ONLY because it (loudly) advertised the option for free movement is definitely something that should not be changed in a game 1.5 years past full release. Its crossing a line that would even be considered a radical move in an early access game. In a fully mature game its simply outrageous.

Why not? I don't think it crosses the line, and somebody might think that, for example, removing per-planet food crosses the line. You cannot please everyone.
If you think that it displeases a large group of people, not only vocal minority, then stay on 1.8.3. Make a community. If this community will be big, "your" game will evolve too - new mods will be written, new memes will be generated, and so on. Show Stellaris Devs that you can not only whine on the message boards, but be creative and productive, and that they should think about your interests too.

Or, if you do not like Stellaris enough, just go to another game. It is a perfectly valid opton.

 

[Lucian667]

Why not? I don't think it crosses the line, and somebody might think that, for example, removing per-planet food crosses the line. You cannot please everyone.
If you think that it displeases a large group of people, not only vocal minority, then stay on 1.8.3. Make a community. If this community will be big, "your" game will evolve too - new mods will be written, new memes will be generated, and so on. Show Stellaris Devs that you can not only whine on the message boards, but be creative and productive, and that they should think about your interests too.

Or, if you do not like Stellaris enough, just go to another game. It is a perfectly valid opton.

Per planet food is clearly not a core mechanic of the game, there is nothing game-defining about it. Changing from free-movement option to forced starlanes as the only movement type is. You seriously cant tell the difference between the two? Really?

 

[StragaSevera]

Per planet food is clearly not a core mechanic of the game. Forced starlanes as the only movement type are. You seriously cant tell the difference between the two? Really?

I can, of course - but I would understand a position of person who cannot. She or he would say that removing it, like, "dumbs down planetary management" or something like it.

Yes, you feel rage and pain. I would feel the same rage if they would decide to remove ship designer. But what I'm trying to say, is that there are constructive ways to migtiate the impact for you. You are not alone, and you can - really can - survive without 2.x.x patch.

 

[Lucian667]

I can, of course - but I would understand a position of person who cannot. She or he would say that removing it, like, "dumbs down planetary management" or something like it.

Yes, you feel rage and pain. I would feel the same rage if they would decide to remove ship designer. But what I'm trying to say, is that there are constructive ways to migtiate the impact for you. You are not alone, and you can - really can - survive without 2.x.x patch.

Hopefully in the next dev diary Wiz will announce that they're removing the ship designer because "it makes things much easier for them". Then maybe you'll understand what all the fuss is about.

 

[StragaSevera]

Hopefully in the next dev diary Wiz will announce that they're removing the ship designer because "it makes things much easier for them". Then maybe you'll understand what all the fuss is about.

What makes you think that I do not understand? I am trying to comfort you, but you are trying to hurt me.

And - by the way - we don't know that there will be absolutely no way to mod warp into 2.x.x. For example, mod for 2.x.x can simply generate hyperlanes between all stars in a certain radius and hide them from the worldmap. This way, game will behave a lot like warp - and if mod creates "tiered" lanes that allow only ships with "tiered" engines, you can emulate this behaviour as well. You will be as free to roam the space as now.

 

[Malecord]

Why not? I don't think it crosses the line, and somebody might think that, for example, removing per-planet food crosses the line.

Pfffft.

It would be true if this was an earth based games like civilization. In that IP city based food is a founding mechanic. If they change it to a civ resource this will completely change how the game feels since cities would grow independently of surrounding land. People would be right to be pissed off if a change like this lands in a patch. Cities are the hearth of that game.

But in Stellaris instead nobody really cares about what happens on planetary surface. As long as you get your resource flow local vs empire food is just a matter of having a little more or less micro. We liked the fact that empire food meant less micro i.e. less time spent on planets. But we would not freak out either should they revert it to the previous state (which anyway they cannot because it would break habitats, it's the true reason they gave a shit to this basic qol improvement in the first place).

 

[StragaSevera]

nobody really cares about what happens on planetary surface

You say it with such certainity... For example, I really care about it. For me, Stellaris is a game about planets in space, not about space around planets. Space - and methods of travelling it - is secondary to me. People, stations, inhabited by people, spaceships, piloted by people - are primary.

 

[Ramsay]

... Or, if you do not like Stellaris enough, just go to another game. It is a perfectly valid opton.

Agreed, however before I give up on Stellaris, it's only fair to give PDX some feedback on why I stopped playing.

 

[Lucian667]

Well, if they will remove, for example, ship designer and replace it with pre-built ships, then I simply will continue to play 1.8.3. When I will be bored, I will install some mods from 1.8.3 community, and when I will be bored by them, I will either write my own mod, or leave Stellaris. Basically, the fate of every game - be played, then be forgotten. *shrugs*

Fine, you would do that. But other people would write salty forum posts about how unfair it is to remove the ship designer 1.5 years after the game has already been released, they would insist that the only reason they even bought Stellaris was because of the flexible ship designer. And if enough people feel the same and write enough negative posts then the devs might conclude that they underestimated the degree of customer backlash and decide to keep the ship designer to avoid loss of revenue for Paradox.

We each have our ways of dealing with decisions that we dont like, your way results in passive acceptance of a decision that you hate and any reversal of that decision is impossible because the devs never even find out that you disapprove. My way results in letting the devs know how I feel and if there are enough people like me, possibly prompting change. I certainly know which way I'm sticking with.

 

[Malecord]

People, stations, inhabited by people, spaceships, piloted by people - are primary.

I think what you really wanted to write in that list was "People and what they eat" since your opening point was arguing on the Stellaris defining feature that was forcing people to eat only same planet produced food and how instead allowing food to move in between planets (and only planets: people in space stations eat minerals if you never noticed) would be a deal breaker for some players.

 

[Black5Raven]

Wiz said: ↑
All empires start with all basic weapons in Cherryh. More on this next DD.

I understood everything, they were bitten by Gabe Newell - 3, got it ? 3 FTL became too difficult - cut !
3 different weapons type - cut it !
3 different ethnics - work in process , please stand by .

 

[Molikroth]

Wiz said: ↑
All empires start with all basic weapons in Cherryh. More on this next DD.

I understood everything, they were bitten by Gabe Newell - 3, got it ? 3 FTL became too difficult - cut !
3 different weapons type - cut it !
3 different ethnics - work in process , please stand by .

How is giving you all the types of weapons "cutting" it? I don't understand. You don't lose anything. You can still play like you only have the one weapon type, you could unlock tier 1 missiles and lasers before the 5th year was out anyway if you wanted.

 

[StragaSevera]

We each have our ways of dealing with decisions that we dont like, your way results in passive acceptance of a decision that you hate and any reversal of that decision is impossible because the devs never even find out that you disapprove.

Where do I say "passive acceptance"? I say "make a community, make new mods, show devs that you are still playing 1.8.3 because of warp, and only if you are bored - leave". I think simply sitting in a thread and whining will not change anything.

I think what you really wanted to write in that list was "People and what they eat" since your opening point was arguing on the Stellaris defining feature that was forcing people to eat only same planet produced food and how instead allowing food to move in between planets (and only planets: people in space stations eat minerals if you never noticed) would be a deal breaker for some players.

You are what you eat ;-) In case of one of my races, they are actually people, because they eat another people...

 

[smeznaric]

What makes you think that I do not understand? I am trying to comfort you, but you are trying to hurt me.

And - by the way - we don't know that there will be absolutely no way to mod warp into 2.x.x. For example, mod for 2.x.x can simply generate hyperlanes between all stars in a certain radius and hide them from the worldmap. This way, game will behave a lot like warp - and if mod creates "tiered" lanes that allow only ships with "tiered" engines, you can emulate this behaviour as well. You will be as free to roam the space as now.

I hope this is going to work. I just have to wonder though, if that's so easy to do, then what's the harm of leaving the option natively in the game?

Personally I bought Stellaris with the expectation of buying every single expansion that comes out because new content is important for me to stay interested (and I have bought all of those that have come out so far). But I am very disappointed by the FTL changes and am now more likely to drop the game entirely. Will this motivate the devs? I don't know, maybe if there are enough of us and the gigantic effort they're making on 2.0 doesn't pay off in terms of revenue. But I think it's certainly the right thing for us to voice our concerns loudly so that devs don't say at the end "why didn't you say something?".

 

[Shermanator]

I originally posted this in the Dev Diary FTL thread but I think that it is relevant to this thread as well so I am posting it here.

I think the conversation on whether the FTL change is good or bad has been beaten to death. At this rate everyone who would have changed their minds already has, nobody is going to change their minds one way or the other anymore, at least not until the update comes out and people get to play it.

So all I will say now is that I think the modding community can and absolutely will come together and create a high quality Warp/free movement FTL mod that updates with every version of the game. That way people who feel that the FTL change is a deal breaker for them can be happy enough to keep playing. I bet enough people would use such a mod that they could still reliably play multiplayer.

I mean think about it, already, the devs for Star Trek: New Horizons, one of the largest mods, have said they will manage right? If they create a free movement FTL system for their mod, I'm sure they could also release it has a standalone mod, or at least share their knowledge with other modders who want free movement. And there has to be plenty of modders who don't like the new system, so I'm sure at least some of them will want to create FTL mods.

Despite being ok with the changes myself, I do think, due to the sizable group of people who just can't stand this change, that the devs should leave warp mechanics in at least so that they can be modded back in easier. Wiz has said they communicate with modders.

And I realize having to use mods isn't a perfect solution, but if you like Stellaris but can't stand hyperlanes, then I think using mods is preferable to never being able to update past 1.8.3

 

[Black5Raven]

How is giving you all the types of weapons "cutting" it? I don't understand. You don't lose anything. You can still play like you only have the one weapon type, you could unlock tier 1 missiles and lasers before the 5th year

Variety and role-play, they cut it out.
In the past, any of the three FTL technologies to choose from, you can choose whatever you want. Star Trek with warp, star wars and hyperline, warhammer and wormholes (not entirely true, there is no true wormhole - mix beetween wormhole and psijump/+ some kind hiper a bit)

And one of the weapons to choose from - hey I will have pacifists conservatives who prefer not to get involved in close combat and use only missile weapons bc they dont trust for kinetic or lasers.
Here, the militarists and xenophobi with kinetic, because they love watching how their opponents turn into piles of debris at close range.
No - you do not need it. Too complicated. Its not so great stuff in comparison with FTL but still .

More importantly, the trend where stellaris moves - it show it .

 

[Molikroth]

Variety and role-play, they cut it out.
In the past, any of the three FTL technologies to choose from, you can choose whatever you want. Star Trek with warp, star wars and hyperline, warhammer and wormholes (not entirely true, there is no true wormhole - mix beetween wormhole and psijump/+ some kind hiper a bit)

And one of the weapons to choose from - hey I will have pacifists conservatives who prefer not to get involved in close combat and use only missile weapons bc they dont trust for kinetic or lasers.
Here, the militarists and xenophobi with kinetic, because they love watching how their opponents turn into piles of debris at close range.
No - you do not need it. Too complicated. Its not so great stuff in comparison with FTL but still .

More importantly, the trend where stellaris moves - it show it .

Okay, so you can still have your pacifists use only missiles, you decide what your ships loadouts are. You decide which research paths you're going to take. The only difference here is instead of a button on character creation you just redesign your starting ships to use whatever weapon loadout you want it to. The variety of those weapons is still there, literally nothing was removed from the code.

 

[Lucian667]

Where do I say "passive acceptance"? I say "make a community, make new mods, show devs that you are still playing 1.8.3 because of warp, and only if you are bored - leave". I think simply sitting in a thread and whining will not change anything.

You dont say "passive acceptance", but I define passive acceptance as the devs never even finding out that you dont like their decisions because you dont ever bother to tell them. That's pretty damn passive.

Also YOU are "sitting in a thread and whining" right now and have been for several pages. If you dont think it will change anything, why are you even bothering? For me the answer is clear, I maintain hope that providing the devs with feedback can potentially make a difference.