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Seb_Jean

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Because without discusding it, it certainly wont change.

It won't change, whether people like it or not. If they made this decision, they were prepared to deal with the consequences. Like I said, I was upset at first but moved on really fast. I won't stop playing because wormhole is gone. FTL choice wasn't the reason I was interested by this game.
 

Obak

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It won't change, whether people like it or not. If they made this decision, they were prepared to deal with the consequences. Like I said, I was upset at first but moved on really fast. I won't stop playing because wormhole is gone. FTL choice wasn't the reason I was interested by this game.
I think this attitude is detrimental to both creators and consumers, if we all lived like this creators would not receive any meaningful feedback that would help them improve and consumers would drown in mediocre games and pay to win dlc.
 

Hunnuli

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Reasoning is simple, they had limited resources and wanted to implement a new way to play this game and the current FTL system needed too much work to realize their vision. I'm surprised that people still argue about this when the devs clearly said why. I was upset at first but I won't cry about the loss of Wormhole and warp. Some people here act like it was the only reason they had to play this game...
Maybe because it was, or at least a very major reason? I am unsure of what to equate it to since I don't know what you care about. But the point is everyone has straws that will break the camel's back. For example I have friends that can't stand turn based games and it would be a rare turn based game that got their attention. If my friends played stellaris and it went from real time to turn based they would jump ship fast. I am in the opposite boat. I tend to really dislike RT games. Stellaris had enough appeal elsewhere to override that, but it seems determined to take away that which I find appealing.

The loss of wormhole, while not the only reason, is a rather big one. I just really like space games where you end up dotted all over so that you can have enemies and allies in between your worlds. Obviously stellaris, having a border mechanic and the insane influence costs for settling in such a way, isn't exactly ideally situated to fulfill that desire, but wormhole enabled me to do it to some extent. Other changes have also put pressure on my enjoyment, but I always came back to enjoy wormhole and freedom to settle the way I enjoy. You just can't play that way in most 4x's due to movement limitations. I suppose Stars! is going to forever remain my favorite Space 4x. I thought stellaris may eventually be able to challenge it even if it was a despised RT game, but that hope is dashed. They seem determined to have hard borders rather than fun intermingling settlements. The hyperlane is just a way to enforce the same hard borders we see in pretty much every other game.
 

Kult der Krähe

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Reasoning is simple, they had limited resources and wanted to implement a new way to play this game and the current FTL system needed too much work to realize their vision. I'm surprised that people still argue about this when the devs clearly said why. I was upset at first but I won't cry about the loss of Wormhole and warp. Some people here act like it was the only reason they had to play this game...

You seem not to have understood, so I will explain it again more concisely.

There is absolutely no reason to take these two FtL types away. No reason at all. The changes they wish to implement can be implemented without effecting the way I play my game. The desire by Paradox to create a game that utilizes static defenses, defendable borders, and the general feel of a land-crawler game can indeed be implemented EXACTLY as they wish... in Hyperlane-Only games. There is absolutely no reason to take away the other two. The only reason I could see any validity in is the "well, we needed to utilize the existing mechanics of the other two FtL types for our new FtL instances", but that doesn't even hold ground. I've gone through the files of Stellaris. They're simple files. It isn't hard to create the new material while leaving the old material there for players who want to use it. So I repeat, there is no reason for getting rid of them... beyond arbitrarily wanting everyone to play the game in the same way, and pardon me, but I dislike people trying to make decisions for me, especially when they gave me the ability to make my own.

So essentially, supporting the removal of Warp and Wormhole is basically supporting the idea that it's okay to tell players that they aren't allowed to play the game the way they want to. Every time somebody tells one of us who don't like the decision to go and cry a river, they're basically saying "We don't care if what's fun for you is getting removed, because what's fun for us is still there". If Paradox had went the other direction and said "well, hyperlanes are essentially useless compared to warp and wormhole, so we're just going to get rid of them", I'd be all up in arms about that as well, because even though I despise hyperlanes, I don't believe it's right to take away player choice when it isn't necessary. I thought they gave us the ability to choose these things in the galaxy setup for a reason.

I have put some 800 hours into Stellaris. Less than a quarter of that has been in hyperlane games. I cannot find a way to enjoy the limitations of them, and the game becomes a grind that isn't any fun, especially if I want to play a conqueror playthrough in a huge galaxy. I see no reason why my games should be rendered un-fun from the next update forward when there is no reason for them to be, and once again, have difficulty understanding why people support the decision to take away what other people find fun just because they're fine with it.
 

Lucian667

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Reasoning is simple, they had limited resources and wanted to implement a new way to play this game and the current FTL system needed too much work to realize their vision. I'm surprised that people still argue about this when the devs clearly said why. I was upset at first but I won't cry about the loss of Wormhole and warp. Some people here act like it was the only reason they had to play this game...

Not the only reason, but I can say with 100% certainty that I would never in a million years have purchased Stellaris if it were just another starlane-only 4x game like so many others out there that infest the genre like weeds. Just like I didn't bother to purchase Endless Space 2 despite a couple of things about it that I liked, the negatives just vastly outweighed the positives.

Originally that wasn't the case with Stellaris despite the way that I never liked the miserably uninspired "sit-there-and-watch-it-play-with-itself" excuse for tactical combat. But now with the decision to force starlanes onto everybody whether they like it or not, Stellaris has joined Endless Space 2 as a just another 4x reject to add to the discard pile. The only difference is that I was bait-and-switched into buying Stellaris first, something I'm going to remember for a long, long time.
 
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MartinSWE

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Maybe I'm being to positive here but doesn´t the Dev Diary say that Hyperlane will be the only form of travel at the start of the game. By completing certain technologies Empires will be able to utilise other forms of travel. Having restrictions at the start of the game doesn´t seem that bad to me and especially considering some of the the current ones are OP compared to the others.
 

Seb_Jean

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That cuts both ways; It's not like the decision is under threat if you don't back them up, so there's really no point in cheerleading for them. Yet you do it anyway.

Seriously? Just because I don't share the same opinion, I'm cheerleading? I'll stop there, next step, you will say I was brainwashed.
 

Tsu Chi

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Premise. The last dd on hyperlane only Stellaris 2.0 is a deal breaker for me. But I really like the game and I want to try to remain constructive. I thought about it and I came to the conclusion that with some fixes the hyperlane thing can arrive into a state where it can be acceptable for me. So here I am.

Let's start with my issues:
  • Hyperlanes are the antithesis of space. Space is about space (not surprisingly I'd say). Hyperlanes are about mazes made of walls and corridors, dungeons made of rooms and doors, possibly provinces separated by non traverseable lakes and mountains. They are not about space. In the least.

  • Hyperlanes (as they are now) kills strategy. Strategy is about choices, weighting them and finally decide. Variety. So for instance if I'm the aggressor I have a choice on where I want to face my opponents: in a fortified system? In a system where space conditions are hostile to attackers? In a system where I can not retreat? Hyperlanes (as they are not and as they have been shown in the stream) are the opposite of that. The will be 2, maybe 3 routes to your enemy. He will fortify them and you will frontal assault the weakest one if you feel your deathball is stronger than his deathball and deathtrap combined. There is only one obvious choice and like 1 or 2 completely wrong ones. Where is strategy in this?

Design issues I understand from dd and solutions I accept:
  • I understand wormholes are to much different to coexists with the other FTL and I've no complaint on their new role. I see the strategic value in designing a functional mid-late game wormholes net. And I like it.
  • I understand (allied) military fleets needs to move with similarly enough to make the thing usable by a players in multiplayers and allies AI as well. But due to the sheer number of political entities involved in Stellaris conflict it means to flat choices for everybody allies and enemies alike.

What I want:
Warp. Because warp is about travelling in space and having choices. Hyperlanes are about mazes and not having choices at all.

The issues with current warp:
Many choices but with no relevant strategic value associated. So it's really lot of not important choices.

Common ground with devs:
It's also true that warp, implementation wide, is just a special case of hyperlane. Depending on the power of the warp engine it's like having an hyperlane on all stars that are on a certain euclidean distance, whereas hyperlanes are just arbitrarily imposed by the map generator.

I believe this reasoning of mine is sort of common ground where we can try to build something on your hyperlane only rework that at feels more like space (and warp) and less of pacman. That is: we can start from current implementation of warp, try to see it as an extreme case of hyperlanes and then put some constraints that make it interesting. Or viceversa: start from hyperlanes and relax it a bit so it gives at least some strategical choice of interest.

Proposals/ideas for new hyperlane system:
  • Lanes have a length. Some lanes (depending on euclidean distance) becomes accessible only after you research better FTL. This would give to the new FTL a behavior that is more consistent with open space (and warp). The euclidean distance thing could be relaxed with some flavor text (like the space is more/less dense so longer/shorter distances can be traversed).
  • Not all lanes are the same. Some lanes traverse a piece of space that is not empty as it looks like. There could be polarized gas masses, there could be dark matter asteroid fields, there could be dimensional fractures, whatever you want. Still they can only be traversed once a certain tech is researched. You want to create islands and early game isolated pieces of map. Here is a more sensible approach than what you have now. You can also create mutually exclusive engine configuration variants so you can equip a fleet with the possibility to go through certain lanes but not others unless without a refit.
  • Certain lanes apply debuff/restriction. Like above certain lanes traverse hazard piece of space so traversing them comes with a cost/restriction that may be mitigated by tech but not removed. It could be that only ship classes bigger than can traverse them. Or the opposite: only the smaller ships. It could be that they reduce your shields by X% for one month, or your armor, or certain weapon types damage or a combination. It could be that your fleet will split up during traversal and ships will arrive in multiple batches instead of all together. This is the geography you really need to create the strategical options that Stellaris now doesn't have (star system geography is interesting but will not solve the current issues). Forcing players to take the only hyperlane available and crush on a (mindlessly placed) fortress is not strategy. It's a no choice scenario. Giving players different options with different cost/risks associated is strategy. Let them make a risk assessment, go for it and then feel what it is to see it go right or horribly wrong.
  • Certain lanes are one way only. There is a positron whatever current that allows only movement in one direction and not the other. Again: strategic geography.
  • Certain lanes needs to be mapped by science ship. There is an hazard on that route so a science ship must first chart the safe route. After this action the route is usable for X years. Then it need to be mapped again since the space changes over time and the hazard might have moved. Hazard might be artificial (minefields). Not all routes can be applied mines for whatever reason you like (cosmic winds, dimensional waves whatever).
  • Certain lanes opens and closes randomly (or simil randomly) over time. Space changes.
  • Civilian traffic only goes through standard lanes (no hazard / special lanes). That way you can maintain the current influence costs and other distace calculations. Special lanes are only for exploration/military purposes.
  • Cosmetic stuff: hyperlanes are renamed routes on teh map. The engine type is renamed warp. Two systems have a route or either they are more distant than max warp range or there is some visible space hazard in between. There are different map modes to show: all possible routes (the ugly hyperlane web thing), only routes available from current fleet position to hovered star system with different optimization (time, no debuff, etc). Color code for special routes.
  • Map generation: don't make the map a pac man maze. Keep a base "safe lanes" structure made only by normal lanes like it is now. Then build on it with special lanes to relax it enough so it still feel like open space but with all the strategic options and isolated portion of spaces that you want.


Please. Try to build on these ideas and whatever other user will suggest. Keep the open space open. Only close space where you need by putting something in it. I think I will be ok with a much shorter range warp than now that is similar to your idea of hyperlanes. But I can't stand a space game that is designed to work like an underground dungeon. As a philosophy fill space with stuff, don't dig corridors in the dirt. There is enough room to make the rigid hyperlane system you showed in the stream look like a short range warp system that still feels like open space.

I really like this idea:)
Because it is almost exactly like mine :D I posted it in dev diary somewhere.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23488791/
I also think that even old gateways could work as hyperlanes - I explained it in other posts
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23502613/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23513110/
I really hope devs would read your and my ideas and make hyperlane FTL the one to rule them all :)
 

Obak

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Maybe I'm being to positive here but doesn´t the Dev Diary say that Hyperlane will be the only form of travel at the start of the game. By completing certain technologies Empires will be able to utilise other forms of travel. Having restrictions at the start of the game doesn´t seem that bad to me and especially considering some of the the current ones are OP compared to the others.
I stringly believe that the debs instead should rebalance the ftl methods, digrent types of ftl allows for entierly difrent early and mid game strategies depending on galaxy shape, ethics and starting possitions.
Similarily as handicap adapting, building bicycle lanes, buss, tram and autostradas, instead of making everybody equally crippled.
 

Obak

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I really like this idea:)
Because it is almost exactly like mine :D I posted it in dev diary somewhere.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23488791/
I also think that even old gateways could work as hyperlanes - I explained it in other posts
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23502613/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/23513110/
I really hope devs would read your and my ideas and make hyperlane FTL the one to rule them all :)
I agree with the supply sollution to doom stacks, and an expanded functionality of hyperlanes could also be fun, but not at the cost of watp or wirmhole ftl.
an expanded hyperlane system by no mean would have to be at the cost of other forms of ftl.
 

Tsu Chi

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I agree with the supply sollution to doom stacks, and an expanded functionality of hyperlanes could also be fun, but not at the cost of watp or wirmhole ftl.
an expanded hyperlane system by no mean would have to be at the cost of other forms of ftl.

The thing is that warp and wormhole ftl could exist in expanded hyperlane system.
For sure they would lose some minor elements but all 3 ftl would work the same in new code devs did, the main difference would be different hyperlane map for them :)

I call it a compromise because I don’t believe that devs revert from their decision and with expanded hyperlane ftl all 3 are possible and even more :) And it is just a little more effort for them and all of us get better game.
 
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Obak

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The thing is that warp and wormhole ftl could exist in expanded hyperlane system.
For sure they would loose some minor elements but all 3 ftl would work the same in new code devs did, the main difference would be different hyperlane map for them :)

I call it a compromise because I don’t believe that devs revert from their decision and with expanded hyperlane ftl all 3 are possible and even more :) And it is just a little more effort for them ana all of us get better game.
Food for thought :)
 

LeanneKaos

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Seriously? Just because I don't share the same opinion, I'm cheerleading? I'll stop there, next step, you will say I was brainwashed.

Yeesh, I didn't think 'cheerleading' would be that offensive; I just wanted an antonym for 'naysaying' and felt the negative baggage (and overuse) of 'fanboy' was inappropriate.

Do you have a better term someone who is as vehement in their defense of this decision as the naysayers are in their condemnation of it? (I'm leaving 'default' to the people who don't think it's worth arguing *either* side of the issue, so no claiming that one.) Or is this just one of those things where you think only "others" should get labeled?

(On that note, is 'cheerleader' worse than fanboy because it's traditionally feminine? Tho actually I'm not sure I really want to know if the answer to that is 'yes.')
 
Last edited:

A.J.

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There is little I can add to the discussion at this point, but here me out.

I've been using hyperlanes almost exclusively, even in early games. Almost immediately what I experienced was the AI using warp drive to bypass my boundary security and strike anywhere within my territory. To counter this, in subsequent games, I planned to switch to warp engines myself. Thus, its a slippery slope as once one side uses warp, so must the other.

Remember the old Start Trek series when Kirk and Spock played 3D chess. Well, that's to remind the audience the thinking behind warp drive. The strategy and tactics of warp galaxy are much different than a hyperlane galaxy. Essentially, the former is 3D while the latter is 2D. In a 3D environment, where you place space stations, and how you deploy the fleet is completely different. Warp drive in a 2D environment is somewhat limited, whereas in a 3D environment the number of options grows exponentially, just like 3D chess. Warp drive in 3D becomes inherently more dangerous because it's so hard to predict where the enemy will appear, but at the same time it becomes much easier to mask one's own intentions.

The Stellaris map has some degree of elevation to it, but it is in essence a 2D galaxy. The strategy and tactics of hyperlane movement is more applicable to the 2D environment, and thus IMHO the reversion to hyperlane only movement is an acknowledgement of facts.

One final thing; One instantly knows he's arrived late in the gaming cycle because all the good avatars are taken. I call this little guy a "Mandible Parrot."
 

Obak

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There is little I can add to the discussion at this point, but here me out.

I've been using hyperlanes almost exclusively, even in early games. Almost immediately what I experienced was the AI using warp drive to bypass my boundary security and strike anywhere within my territory. To counter this, in subsequent games, I planned to switch to warp engines myself. Thus, its a slippery slope as once one side uses warp, so must the other.

Remember the old Start Trek series when Kirk and Spock played 3D chess. Well, that's to remind the audience the thinking behind warp drive. The strategy and tactics of warp galaxy are much different than a hyperlane galaxy. Essentially, the former is 3D while the latter is 2D. In a 3D environment, where you place space stations, and how you deploy the fleet is completely different. Warp drive in a 2D environment is somewhat limited, whereas in a 3D environment the number of options grows exponentially, just like 3D chess. Warp drive in 3D becomes inherently more dangerous because it's so hard to predict where the enemy will appear, but at the same time it becomes much easier to mask one's own intentions.

The Stellaris map has some degree of elevation to it, but it is in essence a 2D galaxy. The strategy and tactics of hyperlane movement is more applicable to the 2D environment, and thus IMHO the reversion to hyperlane only movement is an acknowledgement of facts.

One final thing; One instantly knows he's arrived late in the gaming cycle because all the good avatars are taken. I call this little guy a "Mandible Parrot."
Seen from a distance any soiral galaxy would look flat, just as the surface of the earth would seem a perfect sphere, this however does bot equate to movement beung locked to a highwaygrid. It is the asymetry of manouver that makes warfare interesting, it us what allowed the finns to pummel the massively superior red army, how Hannibal took theromans by sufprise and the japanese to conquer manilla. The germabs to bypass the maginot line, twice.
So even in a seemingly flat, two dimensional plane, asymetric movement is key to warfare.
 

Tavior

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Maybe but that's not the decision Stellaris devs made. I don't see the point in arguing about something or a decision that won't change.

It won't change, whether people like it or not. If they made this decision, they were prepared to deal with the consequences. Like I said, I was upset at first but moved on really fast. I won't stop playing because wormhole is gone. FTL choice wasn't the reason I was interested by this game.

I will just respond to both quote at once.

I have been part of many early alpha/beta/etc... video game dev phases.

Even for Sins of a Solar Empire, this was the version where they first introduced carrier capital ships and other for all 3 races. They had a very different graph for the original Kol Battleship. Eventually they got around to release a far superior appearance for all other capital ships. When you look at all capital ships graph together at that point. Kol Battleship was basically this "thin flimsy odd ball guy" that look like one "volley" away from blowing up.

The community of Sins of a Solar Empire complained about this. Dev was like wha? I can't parse the feedback. So I join the conversation at that point and explained this. They went back and made Kol Battleship the way it is nowadays heavily armored.

Devs are in essentially people and people do change their mind from time to time. Just like when they decided to not support the old 3 FTL type system.

So to take your advice at face value would be to NOT give feedback and assumption that Devs will never change their mind. The end result would be that no feedback would ever get to Dev themselves and games would be virtually "immutable".
 

Shadeseraph

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Seen from a distance any soiral galaxy would look flat, just as the surface of the earth would seem a perfect sphere, this however does bot equate to movement beung locked to a highwaygrid. It is the asymetry of manouver that makes warfare interesting, it us what allowed the finns to pummel the massively superior red army, how Hannibal took theromans by sufprise and the japanese to conquer manilla. The germabs to bypass the maginot line, twice.
So even in a seemingly flat, two dimensional plane, asymetric movement is key to warfare.

The way I see it, Hanibal, the finns and a number of other combatants were still working on "hyperlanes". Instead, they got ahead in the research race and got up to technologies that allowed them to use "hyperlanes" that weren't yet available to those other empires. Alternatelly, they decided to brave "hyperlanes" that went through highly dangerous zones of "space", building an army that was mostly resistant to those threats to reach to their targets in fighting condition.

Warp vs Hyperlanes would be more like one side moving mechanically through the land (by walking, riding a vehicle or so) against the other side "phasing out" of space-time until the earth rotated, and then reapearing the same "fixed" space - The way of moving of both sides doesn't interact. War is much more chaotic in that sense because you don't have a way to control or restrict the other side's movement, and you can't actually set up any kind of preventive measures (patrols, controls, etc) - you move in completely different ways.

That said, I still hold that warp is just a densely packed version of hyperlanes with short length, and that wormholes are also the same just with a slightly different set of parameters, so combining them all and making them appear as different would actually be rather simple. Most of the complexity comes from trying to represent all them through geometry in-game. This is why I don't really think that the FTL modes are that different at all. All of these changes could have been done by controlling system placement and generation and travel distance to limit the number of available travel rutes from one system to another (this is the real quid of the question - right now, due to how dense the graph is, there are a countless number of routes from any system to another, which is why it's so difficult to defend points of interest - which together with the way the current wargoals system works is why defensive tactics don't work).

The real discussion is IF you want "chokepoints" and "strongholds" to be part of your space opera landscape in the first place. Personally, I do want this, so a change that will make them viable sounds good in my book.

If I had done this, I would have gone in a slightly different way: instead of naturally occurring hyperlanes and accidents restricting the passage to certain systems, the owner of the system would be able to "seal" certain pathways to the system - so that you can create those choke points yourself. Think about it as if you were making the system undetectable from certain systems/directions. Higher level technologies might allow other players to bypass part of those restrictions, and naturally occuring accidents might impose limits to this (for example, pathways to a high energy star might not be sealable, and paths from neutron stars might not be sealable, so you have to build your network around those). If you've played Dungeon Keeper, it's more or less like fortifying your dungeon.

That way you still have the "open space" feeling, can still include things like terrain and accidents, can offer tactical advantages and the possibility to create chokepoints and strongholds, don't have to rely on having to build fortresses / attractor fields along your border, and don't have to worry about pulling a fleet outside of its normal pathway.