FTL Discussion Thread

[Knight of Orthus]

I don't hate the hyperlanes, mind you. It's just that Stellaris started out as an amalgamation of every SciFi trope you could find. To me Stellaris was a clash of different SF universes. Some hard science fiction, some weird dystopias, some new age, ... And now it took a really big step in narrowing down into an own specific setting. I'd use the same arguments to argue for the reintroduction of hyperlanes if they would have been cut.

Previously, I could play as a species that discovers some divine providence allowing them to jump from starsystem to starsystem. But I could also play as a species that invents a means to move to every place in space and just chooses to target starsystems as their destinations because there is no reason to stop in the middle of an infinite void. Those are really different points of view, and normally they wouldn't even exist in the same universe. Almost all SciFi has one way how FTL works in their universe. Stellaris was different in that. Was.

Well, a game can't be 100% immersion. It has to have fun and enganging gameplay, too. Sometimes these two clash.

Also Stellaris is one of the only Sci-fi universes that offers 4 actually different variants of FTL (yes, 2.0 version). That's top notch.

 

[Suicidal Civie]

Couldn't you look at hyperlanes being weak points in space time just like wormholes? We had to build a drive to take advantage of those weaker points in space to let us punch through and ride the "wave" of the hyperlane to our destination? Sure, some precursor race able to plop down lines might have made the highway to, but it's just as possible it's a natural occurrence that space scientists eventually learn to take advantage of, just like our ancestors did with the waves?

Given that the weak points are perfectly arranged system to system, the precursor explanation just sounds better to me. But looking at the hyperlanes as weak points would allow for them to have created them accidentally like a cosmic beaten path. I guess I'll think of it that way if I don't want to see it as being made for me. But whatever it is, it's always a form of MacGuffin and having access to it makes a species' character feel somewhat different to one that invented their own FTL.

Well, a game can't be 100% immersion. It has to have fun and enganging gameplay, too. Sometimes these two clash.

Also Stellaris is one of the only Sci-fi universes that offers 4 actually different variants of FTL (yes, 2.0 version). That's top notch.

Personally I'd rather they put more weight on keeping Stellaris an arena for many different SciFi tropes to clash, than streamlining the gameplay. As nice as wormholes and gateways are, they aren't a replacement for the missing FTL methods. And Jump Drives now function exactly like Hyper Drives, only with an addition. So they are more Hyper Drives with a superpower than an equal alternative to Hyper Drives.

 

[Knight of Orthus]

Personally I'd rather they put more weight on keeping Stellaris an arena for many different SciFi tropes to clash, than streamlining the gameplay. As nice as wormholes and gateways are, they aren't a replacement for the missing FTL methods. And Jump Drives now function exactly like Hyper Drives, only with an addition. So they are more Hyper Drives with a superpower than an equal alternative to Hyper Drives.

Asymetrical gameplay is all about options not being equal. That's WAD. They are still 4 distinct options that actually differ.

I also fail to see how your immersion was better in 1.9 beginning midgame - once you get jump drive, it was super-warp only anyway, and Wars were a total drag. That really hurt my immersion. A game can't be fun if gameplay isn't fun.

 

[Overclocked1]

Asymetrical gameplay is all about options not being equal. That's WAD. They are still 4 distinct options that actually differ.

I also fail to see how your immersion was better in 1.9 beginning midgame - once you get jump drive, it was super-warp only anyway, and Wars were a total drag. That really hurt my immersion. A game can't be fun if gameplay isn't fun.

The current game play is worse than 1.9. Far too many player restrictions now, lane only, the war system for example. This game has taken steps back in my eyes.

 

[Knight of Orthus]

The current game play is worse than 1.9. Far too many player restrictions now, lane only, the war system for example. This game has taken steps back in my eyes.

I'll agree that war system isn't perfect, but it is still a step up from before (not that that was particularily difficult). In 1.9 Wars were a super-annoying grind, there was that first year where you briefly fought doomstack vs doomstack, and that battle decided the war. No viable defensive options at all, Fleets taking years (!) to reach a planet in-system (sure, jumping was faster, but moving in-system was a horrific nightmare). Now there are options and decisions, and whoever parks the biggest fleet on his homeworld won't automatically win. That's objectively better. If you personally dislike better gameplay, sure. Devs don't care, neither does a majority of players. As they should.

 

[Overclocked1]

I'll agree that war system isn't perfect, but it is still a step up from before (not that that was particularily difficult). In 1.9 Wars were a super-annoying grind, there was that first year where you briefly fought doomstack vs doomstack, and that battle decided the war. No viable defensive options at all, Fleets taking years (!) to reach a planet in-system (sure, jumping was faster, but moving in-system was a horrific nightmare). Now there are options and decisions, and whoever parks the biggest fleet on his homeworld won't automatically win. That's objectively better. If you personally dislike better gameplay, sure. Devs don't care, neither does a majority of players. As they should.

My point of view the gameplay is worse, not better, the game is played at a snails pace now so you commenting that it took forever to move fleets about in 1.9 is laughable. The entire movement system in game is a nightmare currently. Options? Choke point gameplay is now the only option.

 

[AlanC9]

I think there is quite a difference. Laws of physics are universal laws. So allowing a technology to work simply requires the assumption that as of yet unknown physical principles would be exploitable for FTL technology. Standard SciFi

Hyperlanes are specific artifacts existing in a specific place. A MacGuffin placed there to advance the plot/gameplay. It's more of a set-up, more contrived. It's a more "magical" universe with hyperlanes in it.

They're artifacts in exactly the same way that stars and planets are artifacts.

 

[sortulv]

Hard Sci-Fi explaination of hyperlanes:
They are routes of travel were, due to gravity (or similar effect), interstellar dust/debris does not form. As such, your FTL can run there without destroying your ships due to FTL collisions. Travelling outside these routes are dangerous.

 

[AlanC9]

That's actually a better fit for Stellaris than the typical explanation, which is that large masses fold space -- in effect, causing something like wormhole between each other at discrete points. The problem with this explanation is that it doesn't mesh well with Emergency FTL, which you can invoke whether or not you're at a jump point. (I consider this a problem with Emergency FTL rather than hyperlanes, but YMMV.)

 

[sortulv]

The problem with this explanation is that it doesn't mesh well with Emergency FTL, which you can invoke whether or not you're at a jump point. (I consider this a problem with Emergency FTL rather than hyperlanes, but YMMV.)

I agree with you here, but if one really wishes to find an explanation for that, I'm pretty sure we could come up with one. Say, you leave the galactic disc, and use a specially prepared route to your home base from outside. Troublesome, but better than running the gauntlet trying to get back...

 

[Knight of Orthus]

My point of view the gameplay is worse, not better, the game is played at a snails pace now so you commenting that it took forever to move fleets about in 1.9 is laughable. The entire movement system in game is a nightmare currently. Options? Choke point gameplay is now the only option.

I know. It's why I said it. People complaining now don't realize how much worse it was in 1.9. At least now your fleets move. In 1.9, I wasn't always sure they did, or if they just waited for the planet to drift closer. (Exaggerating, yes, but it really annoyed me )
There are also quite a few options now to traverse large distances without hyperlanes and very fast. Don't bother trying to draw me into a discussion about how gateways cost 26 minerals too much for you to enjoy or some such, the options are there, I am not neccessarily trying to say they are balanced 100% perfect. Balancing is a different topic, this thread is about FTL concepts.

Cherry offers far more options than before. Denying them may bar you from enjoying them, but certainly not me and record numbers of players. Additionally you could kindly provide a pic of a 5x Hyperlane game where 'chokepoint gameplay is now the only option'. Unless that wasn't true. Then don't.

 

[brifbates]

Hard Sci-Fi explaination of hyperlanes:
They are routes of travel were, due to gravity (or similar effect), interstellar dust/debris does not form. As such, your FTL can run there without destroying your ships due to FTL collisions. Travelling outside these routes are dangerous.

Dangerous =/= impossible...

Also there's the whole:

1) How do I magically know the entire network of lanes at the start?
2) Why can't I try and discover new routes during the course of the game?
3) Why are they all only connected to the nearest stars, surely in an infinite universe there would be some that skip past the nearby star and go to one further away, not to mention you'd think there would be some mid-space crossings of these areas where dust and debris don't form to dangerous levels so why doesn't that happen?

Just off the top of my head...

 

[AlanC9]

I wouldn't have made the whole network known at the start in the first place. I suspect that's a gameplay consideration, but I think it's the wrong call.

Doesn't question 1 make question 2 irrelevant , though? If we know the whole network, there's nothing to discover.

3 would be interesting, but whether the network would work this way depends on how the space-folding works in the first place, and that's a question of physics. Gameplay comes into play too. It's hard enough to visualize paths with the few random wormholes we do have.

 

[sortulv]

Dangerous =/= impossible...

Also there's the whole:

1) How do I magically know the entire network of lanes at the start?
2) Why can't I try and discover new routes during the course of the game?
3) Why are they all only connected to the nearest stars, surely in an infinite universe there would be some that skip past the nearby star and go to one further away, not to mention you'd think there would be some mid-space crossings of these areas where dust and debris don't form to dangerous levels so why doesn't that happen?

Just off the top of my head...

1 & 2) I wish there was fog of war. But alas, it is a game, and we take what we get...
3) Because them is the laws of (in-game) physics...

My point in all of this is that if you put a little good will to it, you will find an explanation that fits you... After all, you were happy believing in something as silly as warp drives, right? (And I welcome you to quote this on the day humanity builds it first warp drive and proves they work just like they did in 1.9... I'll promise to buy beers to anyone who can dig up this post to do so as well...

 

[Knight of Orthus]

You sometimes discover new hyperlanes. They lead to a new system, the Cybrex home system for example. Other than that - yeah, if you start the game knowing all hyperlanes, then I guess you know pretty much all of them. That's a design choices WAD.

 

[Flame13223]

Well, the problem is, no it doesn't. Restricting FTL methods adds NOTHING to the game. Every single change they added which is actually an improvement is completely independant from the FTL methods. Everything that is good in Cherryh could have been added without changing anything to the FTL methods. And THAT is what drives me crazy the most - they ruined the game pointlessly.

Melodramatic much? No the game got better not ruined. The FTL change was necessary to make sure all players are on an even playing field at the start. Now where you take your FTL modules after the start is irrelevant, you can go for wormholes, warp, jump drive whatever afterwards, but at the start you need to have a common ground. I mean the whole change that you need to go through the system rather than just enter it to FTL out of it means you have to pass by starbases to go from system to system. Wormhole and warp would have to abide by the same rules if they were at the start otherwise they'd just be flat out more powerful than the Hyperdrive. Not to mention how much of a pain in the arse it would be if they kept the insanely long FTL times on the wormhole generators when you want to just move 1 system away. Now if a ship has both hyperdrive and Wormhole generators then that's a different case that makes it a lot better to use and less of a balance problem.

 

[Flame13223]

You sometimes discover new hyperlanes. They lead to a new system, the Cybrex home system for example. Other than that - yeah, if you start the game knowing all hyperlanes, then I guess you know pretty much all of them. That's a design choices WAD.

Well my guess is that there's a lot of hyperlanes that lead to the "middle of nowhere" So they don't show those on the galactic map, but when you discover that hey there's actually a hidden world in this middle of nowhere they put up the hyperlane on the map to it.

 

[Akka le Vil]

Melodramatic much? No the game got better not ruined.

Yes it is. They destroyed a central pillar of the game, they forced the most boring FTL on everyone, they changed the whole design direction of the game (from mainly roleplay and SF tropes to formulaic ground warfare-based world) to shoehorn Wiz hard-on on chokepoints in fucking SPACE.

The FTL change was necessary to make sure all players are on an even playing field at the start.

That's an utterly stupid affirmation. It was already possible to enforce a single FTL method in 1.9 if you wanted everyone being the same. There was no need to remove anything and to enforce uniformity.
Also it's a purely MP concern, just in case it wasn't obvious.

I mean the whole change that you need to go through the system rather than just enter it to FTL out of it means you have to pass by starbases to go from system to system. Wormhole and warp would have to abide by the same rules if they were at the start otherwise they'd just be flat out more powerful than the Hyperdrive.

1) The idea of having to go through the system is a stupid design decision to begin with.
2) The only reason they added it was because said Wiz hard-on on chokepoints and frontline (in space, lol).
(in fact, the only real reasons why they enforced hyperlanes was pathfinding and said fall-back on tired EU4 warfare, these are the ONLY aspect which are in any way related to FTL restriction, everything else, and I mean EVERYTHING, works just as well with free FTL choice)
3) Even if it weren't a stupid design decision, it was possible to either apply it to warp or WH too.

Not to mention how much of a pain in the arse it would be if they kept the insanely long FTL times on the wormhole generators when you want to just move 1 system away.

What would prevent making the WH generation being proportional to the distance ? Nothing, your argument is again completely pointless and imagine problems and limitations where there is none.

Which is the problem of this entire update : claiming that "it's necessary" when it's not only unnecessary, but not even remotely relevant to the actual problem.

 

[Knight of Orthus]

Another one who thinks space equates freedom of movement when the only experiences we ever had with space, the final frontier, were the exact opposite. The very size of the universe negates meaningful movement. That's a fact.
Another fact: We've had thousands and thousands of years to explore the sea, our closest analogy to space on earth, and we haven't even explored 5% of it.
Missing technology, adverse conditions and sheer size are responsible for that. All of which apply to space a thousand times over.

You may get a 'hard-on' when thinking of magic devices that can teleport you instantly through the entire universe, but others may want both harder sci-fi and more fun gameplay.

I'm not gonna adress the rest of your post, seeing as that is only ad-homines or your opinion stated as if it were the word of god. Luckily, it's not even relevant.

 

[Flame13223]

Yes it is. They destroyed a central pillar of the game, they forced the most boring FTL on everyone, they changed the whole design direction of the game (from mainly roleplay and SF tropes to formulaic ground warfare-based world) to shoehorn Wiz hard-on on chokepoints in fucking SPACE.

That's an utterly stupid affirmation. It was already possible to enforce a single FTL method in 1.9 if you wanted everyone being the same. There was no need to remove anything and to enforce uniformity.
Also it's a purely MP concern, just in case it wasn't obvious.

1) The idea of having to go through the system is a stupid design decision to begin with.
2) The only reason they added it was because said Wiz hard-on on chokepoints and frontline (in space, lol).
(in fact, the only real reasons why they enforced hyperlanes was pathfinding and said fall-back on tired EU4 warfare, these are the ONLY aspect which are in any way related to FTL restriction, everything else, and I mean EVERYTHING, works just as well with free FTL choice)
3) Even if it weren't a stupid design decision, it was possible to either apply it to warp or WH too.

What would prevent making the WH generation being proportional to the distance ? Nothing, your argument is again completely pointless and imagine problems and limitations where there is none.

Which is the problem of this entire update : claiming that "it's necessary" when it's not only unnecessary, but not even remotely relevant to the actual problem.

1) From a gameplay perspective not being able to have a secure border (in SPACE!) is pretty damn irritating. When your enemy can just warp or jump or wormhole into the middle of your empire what reason is there to even build defenses? In fact nobody ever build defenses in the game's previous version. I mean sure the defense platforms are kind of underpowered right now but that's an easy problem to solve.
2) The reason they added it was to make sure all factions start at the same point so you don't get engagements like Hyperlane vs Warp or Wormhole vs Warp where chasing each other is an impossible goose chase. But now with the Jump drives you still move through hyperlanes as normal but have an active ability to jump away or into enemy lines in the late-game. Which is good. They should add a wormhole generator to the game that you can construct to jump through your territory very easily making it much much easier for expansive empire to get from one corner of their empire to another. And maybe even add a long range warp that just takes longer the further you go, just to be able to outnavigate enemy ships when cornered/when cornering an enemy. Again all these as active abilities with a cooldown or other drawback.
3) You could make wormhole generators be proportional to distance except you forget that you need to get back to the wormhole generator first before you can go to a new system, so if the wormhole generator is far away it doesn't matter if you move 1 lane away from your current position you still have to wait the LONGEST wait time twice for the wormhole generator just because you are at the edge of its max range. So its still really really annoying without also having a basic Hyperdrive.

4) If they made a mod or if the devs made a secondary mode where you can use all 3 FTL methods in the current game you'd probably play it for 10 hours and realize its completely broken.