Friesland history

[Hive]

Does anyone know a lot about Friesland history or just the area in general? I'm making my own mod, and for the 1419 scenario I was thinking of giving Friesland german culture as well and a cb on Oldenburg (East Friesland). I need to be sure that it would be historically justified though.

Anyone?

 

[unmerged(739)]

Originally posted by Hive
Does anyone know a lot about Friesland history or just the area in general? I'm making my own mod, and for the 1419 scenario I was thinking of giving Friesland german culture as well and a cb on Oldenburg (East Friesland). I need to be sure that it would be historically justified though.

Anyone?

I've seen on some maps that Friesland actually used to control all of the modern Netherlands as well as Oldenburg area.

 

[Kasperus]

I've seen on some maps that Friesland actually used to control all of the modern Netherlands as well as Oldenburg area.

ugh, please no...

Though in the carolingian days holland and friesland (as far for netherlands) were part of friesen (which was a germanic duchy/kingdom/whatever). During the middleages that were more or less the borders of the fries-people. But from ~12th century holland at least became a distinct county which expanded to the north and finally kicked out the fries to the other site of zuyderzee (so the teritory f the current eu friesland-province)


As for the mod-idea, having german culture isn`t wrong imo (though them also the province should be german and no dutch culture) as friesland (as also Gelre to a certain extent were more german than dutch (not that the differences were so well-defined in those days. Friesland, gelre, kleves, luzemburg and koln as for eu-provinces would have been germano-dutch or something between thus). The inclusion in the austrian netherlands was pretty unnatural thus for those territories and had only at that moment the effect that friesen started to become more ducth than german. But still for example in the 80-years war the friesen were originally pro-Hapsburg.
Further I`m less sure about Oldenburg. Again, a part of it was probably part of Carolingian friesen but later....

 

[unmerged(739)]

I take it that the school text book's map was horribly incorrect then?

 

[Hive]

I see then. The area consisting of Friesland and Oldenburg was one under the rule of the frisians (is that correctly spelled?) - but they where a german state. So it would not be particularly correct to give Friesland neither german culture (without changing a lot of other country cultures as well) nor CB on Oldenburg? Could anyone else verify this? (Not that I don't believe you, but just to be sure... )

Would it be correct to give Holland CB on Friesland then? And should they have CB on anything else as well?

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Gen. Wolfe
I take it that the school text book's map was horribly incorrect then?

If it says ALL of CURRENT Netherlands then yes. especially the Netherlands to the south of the rivers were not part of frisian state and also ethnically not frisian. The same for the most of central and east. Only the whole north and west up to the rivers are more or less correct - at least ethnically.

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Hive

Would it be correct to give Holland CB on Friesland then? And should they have CB on anything else as well? [/B]

If you mean the 17th century Dutch republic as Holland then they indeed should have that cb. Since the Hapsburg times friesen became more tied to the Netherlands than Germany. It was eventually pro-Hapsburg in the dutch uprising but so were more parts which later accepted the union.

Anyway, the frisia of early 15th century was indeed a Germanic state (but it doesn`t really apply anymore since the 16th century) - so were most other dutch duchies actually. It is impossible to speak of any dutch identity in those days, and there were no real differences in languages of western germany and eastern netherlands. Only the farmost western netherlands have by then a slightly different culture as they are more aimed on france and england than on germany. This is one of the paradoxes of dutch history: while the natural border would have sepatrated it in west and east (socio-economical and cultural differences; post 1560 also religious as the east was originally not reformed while the south was) the borders after the uprising separated it in north and south.

 

[Hive]

If you mean the 17th century Dutch republic as Holland then they indeed should have that cb.

Actually, I meant the County that existed in 1419 but isn't included in the game...

 

[Kasperus]

Well, apart from the fact if it should have been existed (paradox seems to have chosen not to include such low "ranks" as counties - only kingdoms and duchies) I cannot think of any reason why it should have a shield on friesen. Indeed, Holland fought and defeated eventually the Friesen in West-Friesland in the middleages (northern part of the Holland-province on the eu-map) but further than that their conquest didn`t reach.

 

[Hive]

Okay then, thanx. I just thught they should because Friesland has Jacqueline de Baviere (the countess of Holland) as monarch. Should they have CB on any other provinces then?

 

[Kasperus]

Well, she was countess of Holland and is included also in the Dutch monarch-file (for some strange reason). As the Frisian and Dutch monarch files show unexpected many similarities I would suspect that some lazy people just copied all the dutch file and put it as frisian as well

 

[Hive]

Lol, I see... btw, do you know if it I there should be a county or something in the Zeeland province?

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Hive
Lol, I see... btw, do you know if it I there should be a county or something in the Zeeland province?

Zeeland was a county in union with Holland since ~1300 or something. In fact the name county of Holland is thus wrong - it should be County of Holland/Zeeland/Hainout and the ruler of Holland was also always the ruler of those counties (at least in the 14th century and early 15th)

 

[Hive]

So Holland should in fact have both the Holland and the Zeeland province? Hmm... that would make them pretty powerful...

 

[Kasperus]

well, it didn`t prevent EEp and AGC to include it that way. they even gave it artois as 3rd province (to make it look like hainaut, although hainaut should be the southern part of brabant and burgundian artois is actually much bigger and more important than that small hainaut; but that`s just my opinion)

 

[Hive]

Yeah, I knew about the Hainaut/Artois thing. I think the best solution is to give Holland the provinces of Holland, Zeeland and a cb on Artois, letting Burgundy keep the actual province. I need to make a special AI for Holland though, as I'm experiencing that they expand way too much with only one province already...

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Kasperus
Well, apart from the fact if it should have been existed (paradox seems to have chosen not to include such low "ranks" as counties - only kingdoms and duchies)

Err, we already had this argument a while ago, however may I remind you that Paradox DID include the Counties of Württemberg, Holstein and Oldenburg and even the Landgraviate of Hessen and the Margraviate of Baden? Also, there are simple bishoprics, Strassburg and Würzburg, which had about the same rank as Counties.

I cannot think of any reason why it should have a shield on friesen. [/B]

Maybe because the Counts of Holland were (or claimed to be) Lords of Friesland??
Hive, if you're interested in Friesland, play an EEP game with them. There are many new events, including an option to ahistorically reclaim the Old Frisian territories in Oldenburg and Holland, other neat stuff and of course the possibility to eventually form the Netherlands.

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Err, we already had this argument a while ago, however may I remind you that Paradox DID include the Counties of Württemberg, Holstein and Oldenburg and even the Landgraviate of Hessen and the Margraviate of Baden? Also, there are simple bishoprics, Strassburg and Würzburg, which had about the same rank as Counties.

Those countries became later duchies or kingdoms. Holland didn`t as it dissappeared. Not to mention that Holland wasn`t even independant in 1419 being defacto ruled by Burgundian rulers.

Maybe because the Counts of Holland were (or claimed to be) Lords of Friesland??
Hive, if you're interested in Friesland, play an EEP game with them. There are many new events, including an option to ahistorically reclaim the Old Frisian territories in Oldenburg and Holland, other neat stuff and of course the possibility to eventually form the Netherlands. [/B]

Polish kings in 17th century claimed to be kings of Sweden and tsars of Russia. Did you hgive in EEP Poland cb-shields on all of Sweden and Russia?
Again, not to mention that there are 2 Frieslands in the Netherlands: West-Frisia and Frisia. Holland owned already West Frisia and that was the old territory of "Dutch" Frisia. They never attempted to subdue the other Frisia which is Friesen in the game. West-frisia is though not a province on the map as it should be the northern part of the province of Holland.

And yes, we discussed it already and my point still stands that you are very good in making up lot of artificial history in EEP from some weird claims while losing a lot of realism. Sure, Friesland would like to reclaim the old duchy haha... the friesen of 1419 are not the German Friesland of the 9th century. Forming the Netherlands? and how according to you? They were not reformed (before the Netherlands conquered them), they were not a trade-nation, they were culturally linked more with northern germany than with rest of netherlands and later there were the most trysworthy allies of the Hapsburgs in the north. A Fries lowlands would have been Spanish till today

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Kasperus
Those countries became later duchies or kingdoms. Holland didn`t as it dissappeared. Not to mention that Holland wasn`t even independant in 1419 being defacto ruled by Burgundian rulers.

In 1419? You must be kidding; Jacoba doubtlessly conducted an independent policy in the four years of her reign.
If you want to argue by historical longevity and significance, what about Orléans, Auvergne and especially Brabant?

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Twoflower
In 1419? You must be kidding; Jacoba doubtlessly conducted an independent policy in the four years of her reign.

Wow, independant. Very, indeed. Only without a country as she lost that one already. Jacoba could have had ambition and ability to rule, but she had no power as a woman in a medieval society and as subordinate to so many rulers, with most important the Burgundian. In 1419, heck, after the death of her father already Holland has no independant policy anymore. The status of independant county that it indeed had in the 13th and 14th century was totally lost. If you wanted to include Holland in 1300 I would say nothing against it, but 1419 it has no purpose and is just unrealistic - especially considering what the player can do with it.

If you want to argue by historical longevity and significance, what about Orléans, Auvergne and especially Brabant?

These were duchies though I`m not a big supporter of having the french one`s in game at least (brabant is clearly another story).
Not that you are a real alternative with eep on it though.