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Hieronymous

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So, Frenzied are still kind of sad, sucky cannon fodder and it doesn't feel super useful to build them as the game progresses compared to other Kir'Ko, and whatever tech units you have. I don't feel they have any lategame viability, compared to the core units of other factions. I was rambling about this in the discord a little, about how I felt their Frenzy should give them more survivability, maybe even brief immortality like Cerebral Override, and Sinsling made a more refined suggestion - quoting him - "If you would take fatal damage at max frenzied stacks, lose all stacks and become unkillable for 1 turn, 2 turn cooldown or something." Thoughts?

It's just a fun kind of trope in games, etc., where someone/something becomes so berserk it's temporarily more resilient or refuses to die. Maybe it would be more balanced to just give them Skitter or something - I know Kir'Ko can mod infantry for that but it's so late in the tech tree that it doesn't solve how awkward the Frenzied are to use or anything.
 
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Sinsling

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+1 just because it's my own suggestion.

I actually really like it and considering the difficulty in engaging with melee and trying to hit max frenzy, I'm pretty sure it could work. Just have to keep an eye on heroes and kirko lightbringers.
 

Fluksen

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I agree that frenzied are a bit on the weak side, but I fear that if you make them stronger then the Kir'Ko T2 melee units like the Lightbringer would loose their viability. I'd rather make them even a bit weaker but dirt-cheap so it doesn't matter as much to loose a few (would also play nicely into the kir'ko being the swarm faction)
 

Zaskow

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If you would take fatal damage at max frenzied stacks, lose all stacks and become unkillable for 1 turn, 2 turn cooldown or something.
It's interesting, yes, but... This rare scenario makes it nearly useless.
I'd make them very cheap (production price) or give them additional evasion/bigger bonus from cover, some kind of ability making them faster etc.
 

Hieronymous

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Hm well the notion was a change not just to the Frenzied unit but to the Frenzy ability itself, which Kir'Ko Light Bringers, Initiates, and Echo Walkers all share as well. Since Heroes can get it too I don't want to make it too crazy (not that melee heroes are amazing short of stuff like that psi vamp sword) and thought this might be just situational enough considering a full Frenzy stack takes, probably, a minimum of 2 turns or a lot of support (say, a Siphoner's Devotion, or a Phase Manipulator) to achieve. When you first charge in you're probably not getting off more than 1 strike, so it wouldn't necessarily be an easy bonus to obtain

Maybe making them cheaper and more spammable/expendable, or giving them a defensive bonus like Skitter, or something else would be more fitting, I just think they're a wretched unit in dire need of something lol, figured I'd try to come up with something more unique relating to their berserk...ness
 

Zaskow

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Kir'Ko Light Bringers, Initiates, and Echo Walkers all share as well
These units are less problematic, I'd say. Kirko Initiate is best here - ignore armor + shield + full force attack needs only 1 AP. If I want to upgrade Light Bringers, and Echo Walkers I'd make them have 40 MP all.
I'd try to come up with something more unique relating to their berserk...ness
Like temporary immortality after killing a unit?
 

Satonir

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Guys now imagine mauraders that have a melee that is immune to all damage. I'm not speaking of a superdumb indentured rn. It will be an unkillable melee that will slay one of your frontline units every time u meet it.
Swine and rpr are already a problem. Do we need another one? Frenzied have a good and useful aoe ability which brings them into lategame. Wanna make them even better? Add armor destroyer mod or some biochemical mod which will also boost their power. Also why not use psy-infected claws and tunnel?

P.S. those who call kir'ko units bad had never experienced full potential of psy buffs.
 

Sinsling

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Guys now imagine mauraders that have a melee that is immune to all damage. I'm not speaking of a superdumb indentured rn. It will be an unkillable melee that will slay one of your frontline units every time u meet it.
Swine and rpr are already a problem. Do we need another one? Frenzied have a good and useful aoe ability which brings them into lategame. Wanna make them even better? Add armor destroyer mod or some biochemical mod which will also boost their power. Also why not use psy-infected claws and tunnel?

P.S. those who call kir'ko units bad had never experienced full potential of psy buffs.
With the above changes they'd only be unkillable at max frenzy stacks for exactly 1 turn, which should be preventable to a degree. Frenzied have never been a terrible manual issue, it's more of the transcendent that usually comes with them.
 

Satonir

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With the above changes they'd only be unkillable at max frenzy stacks for exactly 1 turn, which should be preventable to a degree. Frenzied have never been a terrible manual issue, it's more of the transcendent that usually comes with them.
While it doesnot sound that scary in manual, autoresolves I suppose will make us really fear those units. They ll be doing not less then 40 melee damage without mods the next tirn after reaching death door when staying next to our unit
 

Sinsling

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While it doesnot sound that scary in manual, autoresolves I suppose will make us really fear those units. They ll be doing not less then 40 melee damage without mods the next tirn after reaching death door when staying next to our unit
You're off by 10 and not accounting for if theyve been staggered or otherwise cced to prevent movement.
 

Satonir

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You're off by 10 and not accounting for if theyve been staggered or otherwise cced to prevent movement.
10 per first hit in the battle. 11 per the next one, etc. Also there will be mods on them later on.
 

Sinsling

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10 per first hit in the battle. 11 per the next one, etc. Also there will be mods on them later on.
Melee units with offensive mods are going to die before they hit max frenzy. Specifically in the frenzied's case they'll do 10+11+12 before DR assuming no CC, no stagger, no grazes. Echo walkers do roughly the same before accounting for DI1. Kirko lightbringers and melee heroes are a bit scarier. Initiates are basically a non-issue because it takes 3 turns for them to hit full stacks.
 

Uto_piec

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Making them cheaper and weaker is not a good route. You still only can have 18 units in battle. And there will be even less space for them if they got nerfed.
 

Satonir

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Making them cheaper and weaker is not a good route. You still only can have 18 units in battle. And there will be even less space for them if they got nerfed.
in this case they can be used as "world eaters"
 

Ethorin

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what about buffing Battle Vomit instead?

like, Frenzied are just about the purest melee unit in a racial tree that isn't a Wrecker, and Wreckers have auto res, so, tbh, I don't think Frenzied getting some sort of unkillability would actually be broken...

I think I just convinced myself that limited unkillability is a totally fine buff for Frenzied...

There's also the Enforcer I guess... but he brings a bunch of utility on top of psionic melee so eh.
 

Leon Feargus

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This is an interesting thread. One of the things on my wishlist/todolist is to make a Kir'ko evolution mod.

The idea is to
1) make the Emergent the default core unit, give it a weak melee attack and change the evolution target to Frenzied.
2) make the Frenzied a tier 2, improve its stats slightly (but not enough to equal other tier 2 melee units) give it evolution with target: Ravenous and make it available from the skirmishers building.
3) make a psionic version of the Emergent which will take the roll of the summon (keeping the randomized targets Hidden and Transcendent)

I was thinking to add some additional evolution (like Unleashed to Engulfer) but that's less relevant to this discussion.

what do you guys think?