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binTravkin

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what happens with lowlands, When Burgundy annex france, gets big and/or becames France??(I mean the events when Charles Témeraire dies)...

1.The chain you describe - BUR denies throne to both ENG and DAU and then annexes FRA is pretty unlikely to happen if BUR is driven by AI.
The chance is actually something around 100 * 0.05^2 = 0.25%, so you can count on it to almost never happen.
The basic reason of it is that both "Deny" options are 2nd choices (so they have approx. 5% chance.

2.Lowlands should get annexed before BUR becomes FRA.
 

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binTravkin said:
1.The chain you describe - BUR denies throne to both ENG and DAU and then annexes FRA is pretty unlikely to happen if BUR is driven by AI.
The chance is actually something around 100 * 0.05^2 = 0.25%, so you can count on it to almost never happen.
The basic reason of it is that both "Deny" options are 2nd choices (so they have approx. 5% chance.

2.Lowlands should get annexed before BUR becomes FRA.
1. hmmm, sometimes even the worst things can come to existence..
:)
2. how?(I haven't found it :( )
 

binTravkin

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Actually when playing BUR it's the best thing.
And playing BUR is very fun IMO.

2. how?(I haven't found it :( )
Well, I wonder how long have you played.
It usually happens sometime before 1450 when BRA gets annexed by BUR.
 

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binTravkin said:
Actually when playing BUR it's the best thing.
And playing BUR is very fun IMO.


Well, I wonder how long have you played.
It usually happens sometime before 1450 when BRA gets annexed by BUR.
Yes, I surrender very early. :(
what happens with lowlands, when theres only France(no BUR)? I'm talking about austrian inheritance of Burgundy events.
 

binTravkin

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IIRC it does not get inherited by HAB.

Actually I see no ground for it.
If there's no BUR, there's nothing to inherit.
 
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binTravkin said:
1.The chain you describe - BUR denies throne to both ENG and DAU and then annexes FRA is pretty unlikely to happen if BUR is driven by AI.
The chance is actually something around 100 * 0.05^2 = 0.25%, so you can count on it to almost never happen.
The basic reason of it is that both "Deny" options are 2nd choices (so they have approx. 5% chance.

2.Lowlands should get annexed before BUR becomes FRA.
Well, statistically, this means one in 400 games has such a sequence (barring the outright disappearance of Burgundy or Dauphiné too early).

How many people play AGCEEP ? How many new games started every week ? Not that it's that ahistorical (John the Good was at one point rather powerful in france), or that I disagree with it. The problem is when half the games see the same problem over and over.
 

binTravkin

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How many people play AGCEEP ? How many new games started every week ? Not that it's that ahistorical (John the Good was at one point rather powerful in france), or that I disagree with it. The problem is when half the games see the same problem over and over.

Didn't get your point.
Disagree with what?
What problem in every 2nd game?
 
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binTravkin said:
Didn't get your point.
Disagree with what?
What problem in every 2nd game?
I said that I didn't disagree with the possibility of having Burgundy assuming the french crown.

For the statistics, I just mean to point that given the popularity of AGCEEP, it's only statistical to have ahistorical results...

Many problems, like France never forming correctly (whether from FRA, BUR or DAU), instead having a real mess in France's borders ; or many colonization issues, OE underachievement, Persia, and the like - just look to other threads for lists.
 

binTravkin

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I said that I didn't disagree with the possibility of having Burgundy assuming the french crown.

And?
I just explained the in-game possibility of it.

For the statistics, I just mean to point that given the popularity of AGCEEP, it's only statistical to have ahistorical results...
There should always be an amount of ahistorical results.
If there at some point aren't none, it means AGCEEP has no aspect of "alternative history".
It's the amount which can be worrying and it worries me not atm, although it could be less.

Many problems, like France never forming correctly (whether from FRA, BUR or DAU), instead having a real mess in France's borders ; or many colonization issues, OE underachievement, Persia, and the like - just look to other threads for lists.
So, what's your point?
I've played numerous games and I've always gotten FRA either out of BUR or DAU, or some minor till 1500 if the latter fail and one time even ENG claiming FRA throne.
Are you advocating that FRA should always be formed from DAU if no human factor involved?

Im already thinking it's too deterministic!
I get FRA out of DAU in 9/10 my games! It's too historical IMO.
 

binTravkin

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Which is tiny...

It is actually more as the value is bigger than 0.25%, and also for the reason there are other factors which could help BUR or ENG to prevent DAU becoming FRA, so I'd say it's approx 1/50 games.
 

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binTravkin said:
It is actually more as the value is bigger than 0.25%, and also for the reason there are other factors which could help BUR or ENG to prevent DAU becoming FRA, so I'd say it's approx 1/50 games.

Still tiny in my mind nonetheless.
 

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Still tiny in my mind nonetheless.
I suppose you want it bigger, while Ambassador looks like thinking it's too often..:D

I think the double "action_b"s here is just in place and we shouldn't bother.
Change might result in chain of other "ahistorical outcomes" and balance problems.
 

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In my countless hands off games. I've never seen France not form.

France should form 90% of the time or more. Anything less would be fantasy. England had zero chance of winning that war. Not only this, but an England dominant power on the continent would skew the remainder of the game incredibly. There's many other regions that are quite dependent on a historical HYW outcome. It should be project policy to be a little more lenient than normal in the historical department only as game-time wears on (e.g., alternative U.S. Revolution or something).
 

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ribbon22 said:
It should be project policy to be a little more lenient than normal in the historical department only as game-time wears on (e.g., alternative U.S. Revolution or something).

Indeed, hence why the Timurid breakup will occur regardless. Things at the start where already largely set into motion.
 
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I'm not saying France should always form, just that it should regular enough. For now, I've more often seen France not form (for various reasons, none were Burgundy following the 1/400 ahistoric option) than France form. I agree with ribbon for the 90% (barring any player meddling :D ) : such very important events/situations should be nearly certain, tough allowing for occasional ahistoricity.

binTravkin, I know where we misunderstand. My first post's last paragraph was a bit upside-down, shortened. I meant that I didn't disagree with said possibility that Burgundy assumed the crown, but the last phrase was much more general. I was no more in the specific chain of events, but refering to the multiple (majority, in fact) occurences in my games where I did not see France form from DAU or BUR.

Really, my post was simply about stating a statistical fact. Expanding on that, I'd say that if you have 400 such chains of events (of double action-b options) in the game, you can be sure (at 99.99999999...%) to get at least one of those weird results. It has to be clear. And the risk of grossly ahistorical results is much higher when you don't have such double-checks (in many events, even one ahistoric choice is enough to screw it, even when double-checks are ensured). With one-in-twenty chances of ahistoric decisions, if you have 400 such potential history-shaking events, you get an average of 20 ahistoric decisions.
Probabilities and statistics, often have to be clearly explained and illustrated : many times, I see people ready to engage on so-called low-risks investments because they deem 2%-3% is not much a danger ; but when such risk is monthly, and their investment runs on several months, risks increase, and I have come to the conclusion that such crude analysis are too often misleading.
And, to hint at another difficulty : when a specific event/situation needs to go through a sequence of several events, which each have a possibility for screwing up, risk dramatically increases. Say that Dauphiné needs to go through six two-choice events (itself or of other countries - I make up the number, I haven't analyzed the event chain) to become France, you only have 72.3% probability of having France, as the chain can be screwed in six occasions. This means that three out of ten such event chains will blow up, simply because of statistics.
 

binTravkin

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Okay, I already asked "what's your point?" - to kill all those choices B?

Well, then I'll be departing from AGCEEP and many other people as well.

I simply LOVE those choices B and hate this sense of determinism I feel in the air here.

If BUR didn't have ANY of those choices B (to deny throne to either DAU or ENG) it would be useless to play as the throne will ALWAYS slip away.
I play MP over LAN and BUR is one of the most fun MP countries JUST because of it's ability to seize FRA's throne.

It makes excellent MP game with 3 players which all go for FRA throne.
 
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binTravkin said:
Okay, I already asked "what's your point?" - to kill all those choices B?
I thought I already answered. No, I don't want to kill all those b-choices. My point is that people shouldn't simply say "it's just an ucommon occurence, only a 0.25% probability" or "the AI only has follow a-choice during all six events, and you'll be fine".

In my games, France disappearing/never forming is mainly a result, not of bad sequence of events, but of unbalance with its neighbours, and their meddling in the HYW. AI-stupidity and AI-ahistocity's penchant (related to choices of DoWs and conquests).