French Greyhound Rush

[Makko]

Right now, the french deck can do something pretty simple and very powerful.

Buy a bunch of vetted M8 Spahis, and a few 20pt command cars, and fast move down the road at 100 kph and kill everything.

It's not literally unbeatable, but it's extremely powerful for how fast and damaging and easy it is.

I recommend attempting it for yourself in some manner (you don't need to spend all your points on them, but at least 300) to get an idea of how effective it can be.

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Is this overpowered?

If so, by how much?

What should be done about it?

 

[captinjoehenry]

That is pretty darn OP early game. The only remotely redeeming feature is that the M8s cannot fire their main gun on the move but if you stop them now and then you are effectively unstoppable. I cannot think of any sort of counter off the top of my head. You could also do a stuart rush which might be even more effective as they have more armor and the early AT guns will most likely just get overrun by the light tanks or M8s

 

[FatRefrigerator]

That is pretty darn OP early game. The only remotely redeeming feature is that the M8s cannot fire their main gun on the move but if you stop them now and then you are effectively unstoppable. I cannot think of any sort of counter off the top of my head. You could also do a stuart rush which might be even more effective as they have more armor and the early AT guns will most likely just get overrun by the light tanks or M8s

The Pak 36's are a good counter to that. They have enough AP to one-shot them and a high ROF to compensate for having an accuracy of 0.006

 

[Uncle_Joe]

It's not the French, it's the cheap, light vehicles with massed MGs. The problem has always been here, the French just demonstrate it to the extreme. The 3rd AD with Stuarts and Halftrack could so something similar, but they don't have the income or cheap vet recon to make as effective.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

It's not the French, it's the cheap, light vehicles with massed MGs. The problem has always been here, the French just demonstrate it to the extreme. The 3rd AD with Stuarts and Halftrack could so something similar, but they don't have the income or cheap vet recon to make as effective.

That's basically it.

And I honestly think the French will get some sort of nerf, probably just moving cards around because right now it's just a roll over in Phase A if you're competent. It is utter trash in the late game though, so there's that. But I've not had much of a problem getting enough points early and winning quickly.

 

[Captain Jack]

I've just had my entire push halted with 1 or 2 AT guns, so it's not that OP. I feel that artillery is a larger issue, we're getting to wargame levels of arty spam here.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

That's basically it.

And I honestly think the French will get some sort of nerf, probably just moving cards around because right now it's just a roll over in Phase A if you're competent. It is utter trash in the late game though, so there's that. But I've not had much of a problem getting enough points early and winning quickly.

Yep and nerfing the French is really not the right answer because they are not the problem per se.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

I've just had my entire push halted with 1 or 2 AT guns, so it's not that OP. I feel that artillery is a larger issue, we're getting to wargame levels of arty spam here.

One or two LUCKY AT guns. If they miss their first shot or two, they'll likely never get another one.

 

[Vyllis]

It's not the French, it's the cheap, light vehicles with massed MGs. The problem has always been here, the French just demonstrate it to the extreme. The 3rd AD with Stuarts and Halftrack could so something similar, but they don't have the income or cheap vet recon to make as effective.

This.
As an infantry player (lot of beloved 91.) i can tell you that vehicle MGs especially when they are grouped are nightmares. Infantry can't deal with it reliably if the vehicles are well used. So you need to buy more vehicles (With AP please, not everyone have a lot of them) to deal with those vehicles.
AT gun are nice, however costly, not as numerous as the half tracks/light vehicle hordes and wont survive very long with the proliferation of mortars, also how they are spotted easily.

The infantry wont do any shit to the half track/open top as long at it stay out of rocket launcher (If you ever have one) range even if the gunner stand still with half his body uncovered.
Then the tanks and vehicle fire all their MGs without any overheat or whatnot like in some Rambo scene.
Indeed, completely without impunity evaporating and pinning entire squads.

Funny enough my infantry cannot fire back at lightly armoured vehicles or shoot down the gunner. Even my own infantry HMGs can't.
Look like the soldiers back in 1944 were not trained to fire at such visible targets.
Also, firing out all vehicle MGs like crazy IRL would put your commander at risk and the gunner too busy to scan and be aware of the situation.

I do know i over-exaggerated it. Still for me its a valid issue.

I would wish the open top vehicle to get a crit "gunner knocked/killed" making them failing back when they are under fire. Add with this the ability to infantry HMG to fire back at lightly armoured vehicles, vehicles and open top vehicles inflicting the critical described earlier.

Maybe the infantry would be able to fire back at open top/half track when they are very close (150-200m ?), inflicting them the critical. It would be a good way to at least push them back (or maybe even surrender if they panic enough) when you have no infantry AT launcher or immediate AT gun/tank support in the vicinity.


Sorry about my bad English.

 

[Makko]

It's not the French, it's the cheap, light vehicles with massed MGs. The problem has always been here, the French just demonstrate it to the extreme. The 3rd AD with Stuarts and Halftrack could so something similar, but they don't have the income or cheap vet recon to make as effective.

It's the fact that they are wheeled at 100kph with amazing vet and their own recon capabilities that make them significantly better than stuarts and halftracks.

 

[Max_Damage]

I have noticed how a greyhound gun only has 8% accuracy at max range with 4 acc stat and 2 stars.

Apparently stars for greyhounds do not give ANY bonus accuracy and only work for morale and optic?
they arent good as they seem to be. They are fast but bad at killing vehicles. Good vs inf though.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

That is the correct hit chance for that scenario:

4 ACC, -2 for Max Range, +1 for 2 stars = ACC of 3 which is 8% to hit.

 

[Max_Damage]

That is the correct hit chance for that scenario:

4 ACC, -2 for Max Range, +1 for 2 stars = ACC of 3 which is 8% to hit.

2 star SPW 222 at max range have 58% chance to hit.
lets try your calculation
6 acc - 2 max range +1 for 2 stars = acc of 5 which is (according to you) 27%

Your calc is wrong in many ways.

For my calc:
6 acc + 2 acc for 2 stars = acc of 8 which is exactly 58% without a range bonus.

For my calc only the greyhond gives error. But there is no error if we think that greyhound's stars dont give an acc bonus which may be a bug or an intended feature for a scout.

 

[Max_Damage]

Just for comparison a double star acc 4 stuart at 0.75 range (+1 bonus).
French double star m8 would only get 16% chance to hit here(-2 acc compared to a double star stuart with 42%). The stars on M8 really dnt count towards accuracy.

 

[Ahab78]

rushing things with wheeled French vehicles has a long tradition in Wargame: honhonhon.

Doint this against the AI all day long. Against a player I'd consider this to be very close to an exploit, at least quite unfair.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

2 star SPW 222 at max range have 58% chance to hit.
lets try your calculation
6 acc - 2 max range +1 for 2 stars = acc of 5 which is (according to you) 27%

Your calc is wrong in many ways.

For my calc:
6 acc + 2 acc for 2 stars = acc of 8 which is exactly 58% without a range bonus.

For my calc only the greyhond gives error. But there is no error if we think that greyhound's stars dont give an acc bonus which may be a bug or an intended feature for a scout.

Or maybe the 222 is bugged. (or possibly that is not the initial shot?)

I'm just going by the info that was posted from someone who saw the formulae in the modding tools.

 

[Max_Damage]

Or maybe the 222 is bugged. (or possibly that is not the initial shot?)

I'm just going by the info that was posted from someone who saw the formulae in the modding tools.

And the stuart is bugged too then ...

and.. and... evrything is bugged

Rather the french greyhounds get no acc benefit out of their stars. They are still discounted and speedy though and have mega machinegun battery.. But their acc is really hurting.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

This is info I have (which someone posted from the modding tools):

Range modifiers (as percent of maximum range)
0-10%: +3
11-25%: +2
26-34%: +1
35-50%: 0
51-75%: -1
76-100%: -2

Veterancy
0 start: -1
1 star: 0
2 stars: +1
3 stars: +2

Consecutive shot bonus (shots at same target if not moving)
Opening shot: 0
Second shot: +1
Third and subsequent: +2

Maybe the code is outdated or maybe there is another modifier somewhere coming into play.

 

[Max_Damage]

Just check that stuart screenshot your info is wrong.

My main point is how m8 stars do not give accuracy. I havent seen this on any other unit.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The veterancy bonuses are different for different unit categories. Recon units apparently do not gain accuracy bonuses from vet. The 222 is not a recon unit, but a transport.

I do hate the range system though. Its what results in 400m sherman shots still having garbage accuracy... just irritating beyond belief.