French focus Join The Ententes both OP and can mess with the game

[kettyo]

Currently as of 1.9.3 France can do the focus Join The Ententes without any meaningful limitations and the British AI is scripted to always accept making this French path vastly OP compared to the historical one as well as it can mess up the game as can result in fascist or independent communist Britain join the Ententes which is against the spirit of the game. I'm not sure if Britain leaves the French alliance right after joining in this case or will fight alongside them but i think both options are undesirable.

I'd set this focus to be available only if Britain is democratic and having a common enemy with France.

My logic for this would be the following:

available = {
    ENG = {
        is_faction_leader = yes
        has_government = ROOT
    }
    is_subject = no
    NOT = {
        has_war_with = ENG
    }
    any_other_country = {
        has_war_with = ROOT
        has_war_with = ENG
        NOT = { has_capitulated = yes }
    }
}

I don't know how i can mark added lines inside the Code text box. Would be happy if someone could educate me on this.

P. S.: I'd also add is_major = yes to the logic so let's say fighting mighty Hungary together will not enable Britain to bow to the French.

 

[fallgelb22061940]

I would've made this focus to require that UK be democratic, but not that they have common enemy, since it is made to merge alliances

 

[kettyo]

I would've made this focus to require that UK be democratic, but not that they have common enemy, since it is made to merge alliances

That wouldn't prevent this path from being very OP.

Maybe if it gave Britain serious stability or war support penalties for becoming subordinate to the French again.

 

[Hiksday]

What about world tension ? Or if some minor of the little entente have capitulate ?

 

[kettyo]

What about world tension ? Or if some minor of the little entente have capitulate ?

I think it's important that after WW1 and the failures of it's French dominated peace treaties (largely driving events into WW2) not much British politicians wanted to go into an alliance led by France again. So it should really be an extreme case that the British indeed bow to the French once again in the 30-40's. Maybe my proposal of a common enemy is still too lenient. Maybe more realistic would be the need for a direct threat to Britain herself for they to jump in again.

 

[blue_yonder]

Entente is the line I play, so I'm a beneficiary of this OP'ness, but yes, you're right. At a bare minimum it should move to the bottom of that tree, forcing France to 'build factories for her weaker allies' and spend a lot of focus time that is desperately needed elsewhere, before reaching the big prize.

 

[MobiusTwo]

Yeah I agree with the previous posters. This focus single-handedly solves all of democratic France's problems, especially since you can also bring in Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Poland. It provides an extremely easy way to get the Big Entente achievement, to the point where that achievement is no longer a challenge.

However, I had no idea that non-democratic United Kingdom could and also does join the faction - that is totally nonsensical. I have a big problem with the United Kingdom throwing the game in favor of the Axis whenever they switch ideologies, but having them automatically join the French faction regardless of ideology is not the way to adjust the balance of power.

 

[squid_hills]

I could understand fascist UK joining an alliance with France, if only because the fascist UK tree gets war goals on Nazi Germany. While not an alliance of ideologies and sunshine and smiles, an enemy-of-my-enemy sort of deal would make sense in that case. But Monarchist UK shouldn't ally with France, due to Monarchist UK having NFs to ally with Germany (to reflect Edward's personal affection for Hitler). A French NF that pulls the UK into an alliance no matter what is way too powerful and strains credulity, even in the more wacky world of ahistorical HoI4.

 

[MobiusTwo]

I could understand fascist UK joining an alliance with France, if only because the fascist UK tree gets war goals on Nazi Germany. While not an alliance of ideologies and sunshine and smiles, an enemy-of-my-enemy sort of deal would make sense in that case. But Monarchist UK shouldn't ally with France, due to Monarchist UK having NFs to ally with Germany (to reflect Edward's personal affection for Hitler). A French NF that pulls the UK into an alliance no matter what is way too powerful and strains credulity, even in the more wacky world of ahistorical HoI4.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure if Mosley would want to go to war with fascist Germany. I think people misunderstand Mosley when they write him off as a "British Hitler," but the truth is that he was quite close to the Nazi leadership. Late in his life, he said he would not have gone to war to save Poland because there was no way the UK would have been able to honor its guarantee of Poland, rather than something about his fondness for Germany, but he could have been stretching the truth. Even if we assume he becomes the Prime Minister sometime before WWII starts (a giant stretch), he could have said the same about not being able to honor a guarantee of France, and that's generously assuming his foreign policy wouldn't be overtly pro-German by way of non-interference.

On an unrelated note, am I the only one bothered that non-aligned United Kingdom and Japan almost always end up joining the Axis? What's the point of going non-aligned if you're just going to join the fascist alliance? I get the historical rationale for allowing Edward VIII to join the Axis, but it's frustrating because it throws the game in favor of the Axis and happens every time the UK goes non-aligned, which seems to be a frequent occurrence in non-historical games.

 

[kettyo]

I could understand fascist UK joining an alliance with France, if only because the fascist UK tree gets war goals on Nazi Germany. While not an alliance of ideologies and sunshine and smiles, an enemy-of-my-enemy sort of deal would make sense in that case. But Monarchist UK shouldn't ally with France, due to Monarchist UK having NFs to ally with Germany (to reflect Edward's personal affection for Hitler). A French NF that pulls the UK into an alliance no matter what is way too powerful and strains credulity, even in the more wacky world of ahistorical HoI4.

Edwardist Britain can't join because they are not a faction leader so neither Moscow oriented Britain can.

But fascist Britain joining is still against the spirit of the game as fascist Britain wants to be the leading world power so bowing to the French, especially democratic French should be impossible. Yes they want to contain Germany too so they can't become an even bigger powerhouse than themselves but Mosley playing subordinate to some French pals, no way They can use their focus to attack Germany if they want to and then they will still be the boss of the neighbourhood.

Independent communist Britain joining is also against the spirit as it is envisioned as very anti-colonialist and so in their view France would be the old colonialists and Germany the new colonialists. They might still attack Germany for strategic reasons with their own focus if they want to and then they won't be a second to some filthy colonialist. Hey they even distanced themselves from fellow communists in the USSR, why would they bow to capitalists?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Dear @kettyo we agree that it's a problem, but don’t like your solution.

Instead of changing the focus requirements, change British AI script. Accept only if democratic OR threatened by someone (and France is more powerful than the threat.)

Your proposal would restrict players in MP too much.

 

[kettyo]

Dear @kettyo we agree that it's a problem, but don’t like your solution.

Instead of changing the focus requirements, change British AI script. Accept only if democratic OR threatened by someone (and France is more powerful than the threat.)

Your proposal would restrict players in MP too much.

Being democratic and having a powerful common enemy seems like a bare minimum for the option to make any sense.

Ideally serious British military setbacks should be a requirement too but how can you implement that?

Britain in the Entente makes it not being Little Entente anymore so this event should be the exception more than the rule.

Anyway what are the actual benefits of it compared to separate factions outside of the ability to use each other's airfields?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Ideally serious British military setbacks should be a requirement too but how can you implement that?

France and the French entente being more powerful than UK and the Allies should be enough.

Anyway what are the actual benefits of it compared to separate factions outside of the ability to use each other's airfields?

The spymaster would benefit as well. (more mebers = more agents)

 

[kettyo]

France and the French entente being more powerful than UK and the Allies should be enough.

Fair enough, it could be a requirement too.

I'm uncertain about the reliability of the game's power calculations though. That's the same as the final score thing, can yield some weird results.

The spymaster would benefit as well. (more mebers = more agents)

Probably true but it's a minor gain i think.

 

[Mr_Dimento]

Mosley doesn't like Germany.
Communist UK wouldn't like Germany.
Democratic UK doesn't like Germany (Both Churchill and Chamberlain)

The only UK that would probably not join the Entente would be King Edward.

 

[kettyo]

Mosley doesn't like Germany.
Communist UK wouldn't like Germany.
Democratic UK doesn't like Germany (Both Churchill and Chamberlain)

The only UK that would probably not join the Entente would be King Edward.

But said persons wouldn't hate Germany so much to be subordinate of the French again unless it's really unavoidable.

Especially that France builds a strong continental client system in this timeline so France will be similarly suspicious in the eye of the British as the Germans. Only being a fellow capitalist will make it seem the lesser evil compared to Germany but it's way too little to go under the French. All British paths but Edward's get wargoals on Germany so can join the fight if they want without being dominated by Paris.

Actually i'd rather do so as Britain in the game too as occupying is generally better than liberating. You can't use French airfields or that of her satellites but it's a minor disadvantage i think especially if you can enlist the Netherlands on your side.

 

[blue_yonder]

There's another advantage in France going Huge Entente which I don't think has been mentioned (there's nothing 'little' about France and Britain together). The game regards Britain as senior partner in all but name, so when GER declares on CZ, France can dutifully follow the Brits in the 'British-German war' with none of the very expensive PP hit it used to take before. So France has its cake in that way, and then eats it as well by being faction leader. This means two extra spies of German nationality*, who then steal industrial secrets worth hundreds of millions of francs for the rest of the game.

edit: yes I know it's better to steal from Tibet, but I don't.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

But said persons wouldn't hate Germany so much to be subordinate of the French again unless it's really unavoidable.

It's not only Germany. What if other countries (US, Japan, SU, some minor) threaten them as well? Any British leadership might decide that having France and their allies on their side is good.

• It guarantees France won't attack them.
• They can be seen as willing cannon fodder that will protect the UK.

Being in a faction is not being a puppet.

 

[kettyo]

Being in a faction is not being a puppet.

Yes that's true but who dictates in an alliance is very much relevant. And in the Entente the French dictate just like in and after WW1 and i don't think the British elite would be happy to do it again in the 30-40's with a weakened France compared to the 10-20's.

Your previous suggestion is indeed very good so as if France and her satellites become considerably more powerful than Britain, the Commonwealth, and their satellites Britain bows to the French.

Just i'm unsure how it can be carried out logics-wise to work reliably but it would be good.

 

[Vlad123]

Mosley doesn't like Germany.
Communist UK wouldn't like Germany.
Democratic UK doesn't like Germany (Both Churchill and Chamberlain)

The only UK that would probably not join the Entente would be King Edward.

The British fascists probably would not have "died in danzig", on the contrary they said it outright "too long a war with Hitler will make us lose the empire" they were right. Hitler wanted to keep intact (except for the territorial transfers in France / Poland and some colonial sops for himself and Italy and maybe even the Japanese) the British colonial empire! In his idea: To the English the sea to us the land!