"French Commune" doesn't make sense

[Jamryl]

TLDR : OP doesn't know shit about communism, whether it's in France or elsewhere. French communists in 1930s and even years later would not find "WEIRD" to call themselves with a name reminding of the 1870 revolution. Unfortunately, his lack of understanding is adamant in front of the replies of the other french people on the thread. Let him mod it if it suits himself better, after all, all paradox games get mods to make them more "historical", why not one which would make it less ?



Yeah, well, I understand your point, but frankly having to participate in such a ridiculous debate, and in the same time doing it in a language which is not your first, is annoying enough.

Well yeah but here we are talking about a totalitarian state which was not the idea of 1870's commune. This is how I explain it. Why I find it weird but as @Nicolas I said totalitarian states uses name as they like, got a point here I must agree. But yet it's just a name let's make France great again!

 

[Sigwald]

As someone already said in the topic, it gives some flavour to France, as it's not called "People's socialist democratic republic of the people n°293".

Well yeah but here we are talking about a totalitarian state which was not the idea of 1870's commune. This is how I explain it. But yet it's just a name let's make France great again!

It's going to be. We have found the ring of power once more.
As what you say about the fact that a french communism would be totalitarist, not necessarily. We are talking about an uchronia after all.

 

[Zavaleta]

I think there have been enough historical reasons given to offer "French Commune" as a plausible name for communist France. The main reason is to add fun flavor. Opposition to the current name seems to be based on the assumption of some that they can more accurately imagine what people who have been dead for more than half a century would call themselves in an imaginary world that never existed. A bit silly in my opinion.

 

[ecololuc]

TLDR : OP doesn't know shit about communism, whether it's in France or elsewhere. French communists in 1930s and even years later would not find "WEIRD" to call themselves with a name reminding of the 1870 revolution. Unfortunately, his lack of understanding is adamant in front of the replies of the other french people on the thread. Let him mod it if it suits himself better, after all, all paradox games get mods to make them more "historical", why not one which would make it less ?

We're not talking about communism here but about what the French Communist Party of 1930 would have done, since it's the one that is shown in power ingame. Non-stalinists leaders were kicked out of the party in the first years of 1930' and the FCP entered in the Comintern in 1936. There is no way for them to have set up a non-centralized, localist and socialist-commune-based form of government, and there is therefore no reason why France should be called French Commune instead of Communist France, French Socialist Republic or something similar.

I'm not an expert but USSR was really fond of the Paris Commune. It was seen by Marx and everyone else as an ideal every communist should strive for. In the stream, communist peacefully took control of the country but we don't really know how it happened. Maybe Paris was blocked by communist who declared a 2nd Commune or something.

Yes, Marx writed a lot about the Commune, but the Commune's organisational model wasn't what marxism-leninism/stalinism kept in their doctrine. The commune ideal rely heavily on a decentralised and shared power whereas the USSR took the opposite path. And at that time the FCP just followed Moscow. There were other communists with other points of views, especially in France, so it would have been absoluetly possible, but ingame we can see that it's the FCP that took power with Maurice Thorez as leader, not the nicer communists.
That's where a mod could be a good idea, if someone were to add other parties and flavors to the political game, a French Commune could totally be possible. But that is not what France should be labelled according to what's in vanilla game.

There seems to be a thing that some do not understand here, I'm talking about what was the state of things in the French Communist Party in 1936-1945, not about nowadays communists or even grand doctrines.

 

[Jamryl]

As someone already said in the topic, it gives some flavour to France, as it's not called "People's socialist democratic republic of the people n°293".

It's going to be. We have found the ring of power once more.
As what you say about the fact that a french communism would be totalitarist, not necessarily. We are talking about an uchronia after all.

You got a point but in HoI4 "French Commune" is totalitarian though.
By the way, I reckon De Gaulles already made 4th republic's preparation when he came back in France maybe "communist party" already took same kind of dispositions.

The only point I defend here is the era and imo "Commune" is weird for the 30's but still it's my opinion and "Commune" doesn't make my eyes bleed though. I will finish with a famous:
- "Je vous ai compris! \o/"

 

[Zavaleta]

The Soviet Union was not a union of decentralized local worker councils as the name "soviet" would describe either, but they called themselves "soviets" anyways. There is no reason why the FCP would not call upon the history of the Paris commune to legitimize itself.

"Totalitarian" is a name that was ascribed to the Soviet Union during the cold war by leftist and liberal opponents to describe the form of oppression under its rule and associate USSR with Nazi Germany. States do not declare themselves "totalitarian" or announce it in their names.

 

[victimizer]

Yes, Marx writed a lot about the Commune, but the Commune's organisational model wasn't what marxism-leninism/stalinism kept in their doctrine. The commune ideal rely heavily on a decentralised and shared power whereas the USSR took the opposite path. And at that time the FCP just followed Moscow.

The French communists obviously followed Moscow because that's where their bread was buttered. If the French communists attained political power on their own, I doubt that they'd tow the line so strictly with regard to such doctrinal details. Co-opting the Paris Commune into the identity of the communist state could be useful. The stalinists always pretended to have local governments and local democracies, even as they centralized the state under a single dictatorship.

The "commune" could just be the "soviet" in French communist language. Sort of like the Soviet Union was supposedly a federation of people's soviets, the French communist state would pretend to be a federation of democratic communes.

 

[ecololuc]

The Soviet Union was not a union of decentralized local worker councils as the name "soviet" would imply either, but they called themselves "soviets" anyways. There is no reason why the FCP would not call upon the history of the Paris commune to legitimize itself.

The USSR was named like this because at first the revolution was supposed to bring a decentralized local worker councils country. But the bolcheviks finally took the power and marxism-leninism became the official ideology. And it stayed the ideology of every Comintern party after that. That's why every country that turned commie with Moscow's backing after that became a "People's socialist democratic republic of the people n°XXX", because they were socialist states that followed marxism-leninism. The French Communist Party's version of a socialist state would have been the same.

Not only that, but at the time you have to remember that the propaganda machine was on and André Gide's, Soljenitsyne's and other's testimonies about how the USSR was in fact not that wonderful weren't published. Almost every leftist truly believed that the USSR was the paradise on Earth, and that's what the FCP was constantly saying. It would have made no sense for the FCP to legitimize itself by using an utopic reference that had 60 years when they had an utopic reference that existed now and that they were relying on for their own ideology and even fundings.

 

[Jamryl]

The Soviet Union was not a union of decentralized local worker councils as the name "soviet" would describe either, but they called themselves "soviets" anyways. There is no reason why the FCP would not call upon the history of the Paris commune to legitimize itself.

"Totalitarian" is a name that was ascribed to the Soviet Union during the cold war by leftist and liberal opponents to describe the form of oppression under its rule and associate USSR with Nazi Germany. States do not declare themselves "totalitarian" or announce it in their names.

We know that what we try to explain is that as French I feel that the word "Commune" does not seem to fit in the 30's. I mean they call themselves "Communist Party" and start to use the word and term "Communist" in the 1920's after Bolshevik revolution.
But again it's personal and can be modded.

 

[ecololuc]

Again, at the time, they were socialist parties (like the SFIO) and other communist parties that could have given different outcomes. But have the FCP been in position of seizing the power, they would have made a socialist republic like the other members of the Comintern.

Until the devs or a mod add more stuff in the political screen, French Commune is just not a logical outcome for a red takeover in France.

 

[potski]

It's a naming pattern used by the game; countries switch to "Nationalist <countryname>" when turning Fascist for countries, except for some with unique names (British Empire for UK, Legionary Romania for Romania, Reorganized Nationalist China for KMT China...). In addition the Non-Aligned Kuomintang China is "Nationalist China".

This is not correct at all.

First, Nationalist Spain is not a naming pattern used in the game, it's what the military leaders who tried to overthrow the democratically elected government of the Republic of Spain were commonly called. Their government was formed in Burgos on 24 July 1936 as the Council of National Defence (Junta de Defensa Nacional).

Secondly, in the game the country led by the KMT in 1936 is called simply "China" not "Nationalist China" (which was the name used in previous versions). The name in HOI3/HOI2 had little basis in history, the government in Nanking was IRL that of the Republic of China. The lazy in-game use was simply to distinguish clearly between the small area of China in Shaanxi controlled by the CPC - Communist China.

"Reorganized Nationalist China" (which I think is correct) is the in-game name of the puppet fascist state which can be created by Japan, if they defeat China. This is because IRL there was a puppet state "Reorganized National Government of the Republic of China" under Wang Jingwei.

Both governments used the word "National" not because they were nationalists as most would understand it, but to try to claim they were the legitimate government of the whole nation, when neither (at the time) were.

 

[Zavaleta]

The USSR was named like this because at first the revolution was supposed to bring a decentralized local worker councils country. But the bolcheviks finally took the power and marxism-leninism became the official ideology. And it stayed the ideology of every Comintern party after that. That's why every country that turned commie with Moscow's backing after that became a "People's socialist democratic republic of the people n°XXX", because they were socialist states that followed marxism-leninism. The French Communist Party's version of a socialist state would have been the same.

Not only that, but at the time you have to remember that the propaganda machine was on and André Gide's, Soljenitsyne's and other's testimonies about how the USSR was in fact not that wonderful weren't published. Almost every leftist truly believed that the USSR was the paradise on Earth, and that's what the FCP was constantly saying. It would have made no sense for the FCP to legitimize itself by using an utopic reference that had 60 years when they had an utopic reference that existed now and that they were relying on for their own ideology and even fundings.

You are really splitting hairs here. Marxist-Leninism does not disavow workers councils, even while advocating the vanguard role of the party leadership. Communist states throughout the twentieth century organized local councils that had autonomy in name only. They typically used and coopted local traditions of council governance. Again, there is no reason why the FCP would not use the commune as a legitimizing institution like the USSR used "soviets".

 

[kviiri]

This is not correct at all.

First, Nationalist Spain is not a naming pattern used in the game, it's what the military leaders who tried to overthrow the democratically elected government of the Republic of Spain were commonly called. Their government was formed in Burgos on 24 July 1936 as the Council of National Defence (Junta de Defensa Nacional).

That doesn't make me wrong. Just look at other examples, like Nationalist Finland in the 6.12.2015 stream. It very much seems to be the default naming convention for fascist states.

Also, at least in the Japan WWW the KMT China was called "Nationalist China".

 

[allie-cat]

The OP may or may not know the context of the 1871 Paris Commune... but they're also correct. The 1871 revolutionary commune was still just a municipal government, and not seeking to be a national government but part of a federation of communes in revolt. And it, in turn, was drawing on the tradition of revolutionary municipal communes from the 1790s which sought to federate together as a rival to the National Convention & Committee of Public Safety (Kropotkin talks about those communes in his history of the french rev). It should really be something like "French Federation of Communes".

 

[EltharionDrax]

That doesn't make me wrong. Just look at other examples, like Nationalist Finland in the 6.12.2015 stream. It very much seems to be the default naming convention for fascist states.

Also, at least in the Japan WWW the KMT China was called "Nationalist China".

The Fascist name for Finland in HOI 4 is Greater Finland. Referencing a stream pre-release is not advisable.

EDIT: To tie this in with the topic, Greater Finland is not a name anyone would have used about Finland, but since it references the "Greater Finland"-idea that right-wing nationalists were in support of, I find it an acceptable way to give Finland more flavour.

 

[kviiri]

The Fascist name for Finland in HOI 4 is Greater Finland. Referencing a stream pre-release is not advisable.

If you took a look at the timestamps, I made that reference pre-release as well. That was the best we knew at the time. This is a two-year old thread.

 

[EltharionDrax]

If you took a look at the timestamps, I made that reference pre-release as well. That was the best we knew at the time. This is a two-year old thread.

Goddamnit, here I have been reading this thread blissfully ignorant of the timestamps!

@RELee @Had a dad

 

[FrancescoT]

Necromancy is not allowed. A more than a month old thread should rest in peace.

Closed.