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out

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This idea is really inspired by Anou's proposal. I'm starting this thread because, that thread has gone OT a bit and my suggestion is somewhat different from his.

I want to propose a new doctrine system that would fit better with the new "model-less" tech model. This doctrine wouldn't have a tech tree at all, but instead more of a "slider" setup. You would have sliders like "centralization-decentralization", "quality-quantity", "mobility-firepower", "line defense-defense in depth", "big guns-carriers", and multi-pronged sliders like "CAS-tactical-str bombing", "infantry-mech infantry-armour", "encirclement-assault-delay" and so on and so forth.

These sliders would of course be classified into different major and minor categories; broad categories like air/land/sea, and detailed categories like philosophy (quantity-quality, mobil.-fire), offensive tactics, defensive tactics, unit mix, etc.

These sliders basically work together to form your "doctrine". For example, the blitzkrieg would basically equate to an emphasis on mobility and quality in philosophy, favours "breakthrough" event for offensive tactics, heavy element of armour in unit mix, and CAS in the air branch.

The effects of the sliders are manyfold, but for the most part it would provide bonuses when you are in combat condition that fits your doctrine and penalty when it doesn't. For example, if you have high emphasis on quantity, you would get a bonus when you outnumber the enemy, but penalized if you are outnumbered. If you favour centralization, then the HQ's would give better bonus whereas decentralized doctrines may give command limit bonus, thus reducing the need of HQ's. If your inf-mech-armour slider is balanced, you would get a bonus if your troops are similarly balanced and penalty when it's not. Line defense emphasis would make your forts and entrenchment more effective, whereas defense-in-depth would give reorg and supply bonus for retreating armies. The "event" sliders are more straight forward: it simply increase the chance of certain battle events over others.

But the exact bonuses and penalties would require great care in balancing. For example, if you have your slider all the way toward infantry in unit mix, you should probably get some degree of bonus, but really not much since infantry is the basic troop type. On the other hand it makes no sense to be penalized for having armoured divisions -- they should simply perform less effectively than if you had your slider more toward armours. These are all details that would need to be worked out.

The doctrine sliders should probably somewhat detached from the research system. To move the sliders, you'd need to spend some leadership and practical experience (as mentioned in the DD), and possibly research point. Even though IMO it doesn't make that much sense to spend research point, since the resource needed for developing applied technology and military doctrines are very different. Whenever you shift the slider, you would get a temporary org and morale hit to simulate the confusion with the new doctrines. On the other hand I don't think there should be a time limit on how often doctrines can be changed, at least not a long limit.

What this would create is, in essence, a truly dynamic doctrine model that could simulate all kinds of combinations. It would make it possible, for example, for the Soviet to develop blizkrieg doctrine. But this wouldn't become an unrealistic exploit because they need an army that corresponds to the doctrine to be really effective. For example, they would lose much of their numeric advantage if they go for "quality" over "quantity", and their thrust would be penalized without CAS support. It may feel fantastic, but I don't see why a Soviet player should not be allowed to build a German army if he is willing to bear the heavy cost and to sacrifice the Soviet's natual suitability to a human wave doctrine.

As I said, I came up with this idea when reading Anou's post. He proposed a "doctrinal evolution in response to enemy" design, where there would need some kind of real combat experience to unlock certain doctrine trees. That was a good idea, I thought, but it's still fundamentally static, based on a static tech tree. Doctrines are fundamentally fluid thoughts that really shouldn't be modeled as "technology". And as Anou pointed out, doctrines are always formulated in response to certain enemy tactics. But instead of having pre-scripted "triggers" that unlock certain doctrines, this design would basically give the decision to the player. Let the player design their own doctrine and make the evolutionary response. This doctrine design process would become very much a game in itself, which is very fitting for a war game. This way there is never an end in the doctrinal evolution, but a continuous tweaking process to suit the present needs -- much like how it works in real life.
 
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Anou

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I dont know if you played it, but this is very similar to the battle system of EU 3, which, while may be historical and offer better chances to customize your army, was also very inhumane and lacking historical flavor. Not that Im belittling your idea mind you; its very creative, but one of the main things that I, and I believe many others to Hearts of Iron 2 is that it is a World War 2 centric game, with all the historical atmosphere that surrounds it. I know for one that Id feel it loses some of its atmosphere if you give this much customization, where instead you'd just choose the sliders you'd want and then just go from there, which is somewhat bland compared to actually utilizing your forces using Blitzkrieg or Deep Operations doctrines and feeling like a general. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that what I find most enjoyable is the historical flavor in Hearts of Iron 2 and what you suggest; while very nice for customizing your own tactics and perhaps even more historically suited in that it shows how the various armies of the Allies; while somewhat similar, also had to adapt based on their own demographical and industrial background; would also erode from the historical atmosphere in Hearts of Iron.
 

out

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Apr 6, 2004
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Yeah I did play the vanilla EU3. But it's been a while and honestly I don't remember the details. But from what I do remember, it's very much abstracted along a few sliders. True, my proposal is similar in principle, but much, much more elaborate. And whereas the sliders are the only things that differentiate one army from another in EU3, HoI has many troop types and a huge range of differentiation before any doctrinal difference. The doctrine sliders would be something that run parallel to the existing differentiation on the ground.

I understand your concern about historic flavour, though I don't necessarily agree. If by "flavour" you mean just the names, then it's easy enough to provide some slider templates named after the historical doctrines. Alternatively the doctrine name could be dynamically determined based on a preset range of values, kind of like how government type is determined by the two sliders in HoI2, but of course it would need to be much more complex to cope with the many sliders. This way you could still have different details amongst blitzkrieg proponents.

I don't think a freeform model would be somehow more "bland". In fact I rather think there's more historic flavour because you can actually experience how the strategists of the time had to come up with their doctrines. It's more of a first hand experience versus a text book experience, where you're simply told that "you're German, now go blitz".

EDIT: An freeform model would also give another level of historicity that was impossible on a linear doctrine model. Germany, for example, had largely abandoned the blitzkrieg doctrine halfway through the war. But in the linear model, all the benefits of the "blitzkrieg" tech is retained even as, historically, they should no longer apply. On the whole, doctrine switching is impossible in the linear model, but in reality doctrine switching is very much what top-level military leadership is there for.
 
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truth is life

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I like this idea a lot. Best of all is that (if built properly) it would naturally encourage countries to go for their "historic" doctrines. You wouldn't need the forcing you have in HoI2 to convince Germany, a high-IC but low-manpower state, to go for a doctrine that minimizes manpower use and exploits high-tech units to their fullest, or for Nationalist China, a low-IC but high-manpower state, to go for a human-wave style doctrine. At the same time, though, it would let the player and AI (within reasonable limits) experiment with different doctrines (such as your example of a USSR with a German-style army).
 

langemarckdiv.

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I wonder if its a good idea when you research something you get better at it but on the other hand, you are penalized for something else instead because you have learned something??

It 's not e.g. because you're learning French that therefore you're less fluent in English???

If a country has/research good tanks or good tank-tactics, does that mean that therefore their infantry suddenly is worse?

I don't think so.

Why should you waste money on research or a doctrine when it means you become weaker in something else??
 
Dec 5, 2008
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u cant get worse if u already know something - putting more focus on mobility when u are specialized in static defence doesnt make u loose all ure knowledge in it. U just become better in manouvers but ure still as good in defence as u where.
Thats the reason why im against sliders. U cant loose ure tactical knowledge - sliders make that - u move to other strategy / tactics so the slider makes u worse on the other (thats not realistic)

EDIT
Perfect example:
If u know english and try to learn german u dont loose ure knowlege in english
off course after years living in france without using english u speak less fluantly (even if its ure native language) with it but still can speak
 

langemarckdiv.

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u cant get worse if u already know something - putting more focus on mobility when u are specialized in static defence doesnt make u loose all ure knowledge in it. U just become better in manouvers but ure still as good in defence as u where.
Thats the reason why im against sliders. U cant loose ure tagtical knowledge - sliders make that - u move to other strategy / tactics so the slider makes u worse on the other (thats not realistic)

My idea exactly (look up:))
 

unmerged(71941)

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I like this idea. But there should be reasonable limits - push too far towards quality and things become too expensive etc. I never liked the way in HOI2 that the sliders optimal settings were at one extreme or the other.
 

truth is life

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Gravenn, langemarckdiv.: It makes sense that when your doctrines change in a way hostile to your current doctrines (eg., your example of a previously static-defense oriented state moving towards a more mobile doctrine) that the formerly important "doctrine" people (sorry, I don't quite know how to say this better; what I mean is, the people who, under the old doctrine system, were very important and possibly created the doctrine in the first place) will be increasingly marginalized and their skills ignored.

Furthermore, the troops which were once trained for the old doctrine will now need to be retrained for the new doctrine, something which is likely to reduce their ability to perform their old mission, especially since it will probably require them to be supplied with new equipment. (Such as trucks for resupply, lighter tanks, etc.)
 

langemarckdiv.

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Gravenn, langemarckdiv.: It makes sense that when your doctrines change in a way hostile to your current doctrines (eg., your example of a previously static-defense oriented state moving towards a more mobile doctrine) that the formerly important "doctrine" people (sorry, I don't quite know how to say this better; what I mean is, the people who, under the old doctrine system, were very important and possibly created the doctrine in the first place) will be increasingly marginalized and their skills ignored.

Furthermore, the troops which were once trained for the old doctrine will now need to be retrained for the new doctrine, something which is likely to reduce their ability to perform their old mission, especially since it will probably require them to be supplied with new equipment. (Such as trucks for resupply, lighter tanks, etc.)

No, I don't agree and I ask you again, when you speak English and you learn French, does this makes your English worse??

And my second statement: why paying for research if it means that you become worse in something else, it isn't "OR" but "AND"!

If your AA our infantry is trained for defence and then you train infantry or motorised divisions for attack tactics, why should those AAcrews become less performant??

Soldiers are not morans who can only remember the last thing they learned or are they?
 

unmerged(39280)

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Your language exemple is flawed. There is limited time for training soldiers/officiers so if you start teaching a blitzkrieg doctrine then there is less time to teach other skills/doctrines.

If you like language exemples then try to learn more than 2 foreign languages at the same time and tell me what the results are compared to only 1 language (given you spend same amount of time learning).
 

bz249

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I do not agree with the sliders in the OP... doctrines are not so fluid. Or what is the supposed difference between static 5, static 4, static 3, static 2 and static 1?
 

out

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No, I don't agree and I ask you again, when you speak English and you learn French, does this makes your English worse??
As Serus and truth is life noted, the language analogy is inappropriate. What military doctrines are isn't a simple knowhow or experience, it is a guideline on how to employ a certain set of asset and tactics. It's basically a set of policies that tells your brigade commanders how to fight their battles.

For example, if you're told to "encircle" more often, you'll necessarily do less "breakthrough". If you favour infantry-only tactics, the armour division would tend to be underutilized. You simply can't use two opposing tactics at the same time even if you know how to; just like you can't speak English and French at the same time.

What the doctrine sliders do is to let you finetune the "combat" part of the game where you have relatively little control so far. Doctrinal research is very different from technological research. It's never a matter of "making things better", but a matter of "changing what we do to be more effective". It's a decision, not a linear improvement. And it's perfectly reasonable that an ill-chosen doctrine could make you much worse.

But there should be reasonable limits - push too far towards quality and things become too expensive etc.
It certainly needs careful balancing. And yeah I agree that the extremes shouldn't have disproportionate advantage like EU sliders tend to have. BUT I just want to point out that your example doesn't really fit here. The quality-quantity slider shouldn't have any effect on production cost. These are military doctrines, not industrial policies. So presumably there'd still be a standing army-conscription slider for the internal policy. Of course you'd be stupid to go for quality slider when you have low tech and high IC+MP. It should be up to the player to choose industrial policies and military doctrines that compliment each other.

I do not agree with the sliders in the OP... doctrines are not so fluid. Or what is the supposed difference between static 5, static 4, static 3, static 2 and static 1?
I don't really get what you mean by static 5, 4, etc. What I meant by "doctrines are fluid" is that, well, doctrines are basically strategy/tactics written down (for the gameplay purpose it's limited to tactical level). Tactics are fluid in that, provided a tactic is executed competently, there isn't really a better or worse tactic; it's a matter of using the right tactic for the right circumstances. It's fluid because it's not linear, you don't get from basic to advanced tactics, but from tactics that fit one situation to tactics that fit another situation.

Case in point: is mobile warfare better than static defense? From France's point of view, they certainly should favour a static defense to maximize the effect. Even at the height of the Heer's might, they would have a very hard time penetrating the Maginot line. That's why in choosing blitzkrieg, Germany had to attack from the low countries. Now let's say if the France's defense line covered all sides, then there's little chance of a blitz succeeding. They'd need to choose more of an infiltration-ish doctrine. Basically, mobile warfare is better only when there is room for maneuver. You always need to adapt to different circumstances flexibly, fluidly.
 
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bz249

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I don't really get what you mean by static 5, 4, etc. What I meant by "doctrines are fluid" is that, well, doctrines are basically strategy/tactics written down (for the gameplay purpose it's limited to tactical level). Tactics are fluid in that, provided a tactic is executed competently, there isn't really a better or worse tactic; it's a matter of using the right tactic for the right circumstances. It's fluid because it's not linear, you don't get from basic to advanced tactics, but from tactics that fit one situation to tactics that fit another situation.

Case in point: is mobile warfare better than static defense? From France's point of view, they certainly should favour a static defense to maximize the effect. Even at the height of the Heer's might, they would have a very hard time penetrating the Maginot line. That's why in choosing blitzkrieg, Germany had to attack from the low countries. Now let's say if the France's defense line covered all sides, then there's little chance of a blitz succeeding. They'd need to choose more of an infiltration-ish doctrine. Basically, mobile warfare is better only when there is room for maneuver. You always need to adapt to different circumstances flexibly, fluidly.

So let's see in example you got the slider static/mobile warfare with eleven possible position:

static5, static4, static3, static2, static1, indifferent, mobile1, mobile2, mobile3, mobile4, mobile5

The two extreme end I can figure out what they mean. Maybe the center also. But how can you refine what is between. What kind of bonuses you got from being more 'static' than before, what kind of disadvantages you should pay by turning into even more static?
 
Dec 5, 2008
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If a soldier was a truck driver in logistic section and then send to AT training and become a line troop does he forget to drive? Or general who preffered defensive combat was forced to offensive - he is maybe not so good at the start but he will get used to it and learn new skills - will he forget how to organize good defence lines? U have not enough good officers to change em at will. Its not slider option. Its not good IMHO. Sliders for general strategy ok but why should it have 'major' impact on LOW level command and troops? It should be done carfully. Maybe doctrines should be splited on Tactics and Strategy?
EDIT
dont forget about Wehrmacht. Its generalls where, as u could say, traind for offensive :) (in the system u show) but why the hell they where so good in defensive? Mobile warfare? German static lines and great defensive battles - where is the place for that? Yeah it will be changed by sliders during the war... LOL
 

langemarckdiv.

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//QUOTE//
As Serus and truth is life noted, the language analogy is inappropriate. What military doctrines are isn't a simple knowhow or experience, it is a guideline on how to employ a certain set of asset and tactics. It's basically a set of policies that tells your brigade commanders how to fight their battles.

For example, if you're told to "encircle" more often, you'll necessarily do less "breakthrough". If you favour infantry-only tactics, the armour division would tend to be underutilized. You simply can't use two opposing tactics at the same time even if you know how to; just like you can't speak English and French at the same time.//END QUOTE//

You say it's not knowhow but a guideline... I think that's the same!

We're talking about training and guidelines, so that IS knowledge and people can take different measures in different situations.
OF course you can't attack and defence on the same time (I mean with the same soldiers off course). That doesn't mean you can't be good at defending AND attacking?!
Experience is much more important: a general that has fought back and forth for several years, will be much more performant on ANY tactics than an general with no experience but with an good doctrine!!

The current system is good like it is with experience, leaders and HQ-dependant events as important factors in-combat.

Training an army, only to become less effective in certain tactics is at least bizar!

With your proposition, I wouldn't resaerch any doctrine, because it would cost me money but my armies overall wouldn't fight better!
 

out

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The two extreme end I can figure out what they mean. Maybe the center also. But how can you refine what is between. What kind of bonuses you got from being more 'static' than before, what kind of disadvantages you should pay by turning into even more static?
Those are the details that I said would be worked out later. But for a quick example, lets take this mobility-firepower slider (not "static"). Let's say you have your slider all the way toward "mobility", then you'll get significant bonus if you have a highly motorized and mechanized army, and penalty when you don't have them, and vice versa. The different steps between the extremes just give different degree of bonus/penalty. It's very straight forward IMO.
Sliders for general strategy ok but why should it have 'major' impact on LOW level command and troops? It should be done carfully. Maybe doctrines should be splited on Tactics and Strategy
Doctrines already affect low level combat in HoI2. So what's the problem? The real difference between my proposal and the HoI2 system is that HoI2 has a static tech tree, but I want a freeform design.

Yes there's doctrines for many levels, from strategic to tactical. But since strategic doctrine is basically what you do as a player, there's no point of having to research that. That's why for the game's purpose, "doctrines" refer only to tactical doctrines, which are tactical guidelines given by the top leadership to the low level officers.

You say it's not knowhow but a guideline... I think that's the same!
We're talking about training and guidelines, so that IS knowledge and people can take different measures in different situations.
Not the same at all. Knowhow is an accumulated expertise, but guideline is a set of preference, a set of choices. You can get better with more experience, but no matter how much experience you have you can never choose to walk in two directions at the same time. And NO I'm really not talking about training here, even though that's part of the abstraction.

What doctrines do is they tell the commanders what kind of general approach to take. For example, if you're a division commander defending a city, you could stand your ground, or slowly retreat, or make preemptive strike, but you can't do all at the same time. That's where doctrine comes in: it tells your commander which tactic is prefered over the other.

My proposal does not negate experience in any way, it just adds another layer of variability. Yes the commanders may be equally competent at mobile and static warfare, but they would certainly do poorly if they try to conduct mobile manouvers when they only have slow infantry.

What you're saying is that they should just choose whatever is best for the moment. Well, if they know what is best all the time, then they really don't need much of a doctrine, and we should just get rid of military doctrine altogether.

What you're misunderstanding is that doctrines are NOT experience. Like I said, there's no such thing as a better or worse doctrine, only a more or less appropriate doctrine. Doctrines are things that top military thinkers come up with, they write them down, and tell all the low level commanders to follow them. This should not magically increase the experience, but it should provide bonus only if it fits the situation.

And as you said, if you already have a perfectly tuned doctrine, there's no reason for you to research any more doctrine. That's very logical and realistic. That's why the Romans didn't change their military doctrines for 400 years.

On the other hand, you'd want to research doctrine change when the situation change. For example, as Germany, you might do very well with blitzkrieg, but what if you get your fuel resource cut off? Would you stick to blitzkrieg tactics when your tanks aren't moving and your planes are grounded? Changing your doctrine will make your troop perform worse in some aspects, but when you're faced with a changed circumstance, you must make the appropriate adjustment.
 

Driggsd

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Feb 11, 2007
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If say your national doctrine is static, then for years and years you train on static defences and tactics. Yes you will not lose the knowledge in thye text books and training manuals if you change doctrime to to mobility, but you will lose coordination and institutional knowledge. Generals of one style will retire while while other style Generals will be promoted. Seinior enlisted used to one system will be marginalized by up and comming enlisted of another style. And your recruits will not be trained in an abbandoned doctrine. Add to it that you anual training and small unit training will now be focused on mobility training, you will not be able to impliment stactic defensive tactics like you had when that was your focus. You can break out the manuals and see how it is supposed to be done yes, but the real world day to day experiance is lost.

The US fought a counter insurgency in Viet-Nam. But after that we abbandoned those doctrines for years until Iraq. And even then it took a couple of years for the Brass to accept the logic in the USMC's Small Wars handbook and make it a working doctrine used force wide. This is a decent and realworld example of how doctrines and thusly ability to impliment doctrines comes and goes.