Free Wales!

[Kurek]

Okay, more like what if history... but still...

Okay, heres the deal, I was wondering what the chances were of any kind of Welsh revolt or uprising in the EU2 time frame period are, I wanna make a AAR based on a independant Wales, but i wanna make it like seem plausable, so I thought I would ask the History guys

I was thinking of either in 1419 - England is involved in 100 years war and scotland and ireland are being pests, or in 1490's.
what do ye all say? Could it of happened? what could trigger such a revoloution off? Or am I just too insane?

Kurek

 

[stnylan]

You're best bet is actually just before the EU timeframe, the revolt of Owain Glendower. That was caused, partly, by severe instability in England in the years 1397-1399 (the run up to and the deposition of Richard II) and was directly involved in the wars that followed afterward.

Other than that the Wars of the Roses are a real possibily. Think of it this way. Jasper Tudor has Welsh connections, and his son Henry Tudor (historically Henry VII) landed in Milford Haven and gained alot of his support in Wales. What if Richard III won Bosworth Field and Henry Tudor had retreated to Wales. There the war bogs down.

OK, so the welsh have an english ruler, but a few generations of intermarriage and how would notice?

 

[Kurek]

Thanks, Ive found a load of stuff about it now, I'll post some stuff up when I find more details...
I'm going with the rebellion of Owain Glyn Dwr!

 

[Kurek]

If Owain managed to fight off the English what do you think the results would of been?
Would the English backed off and allowed the country to be independant (Owain had already been recognised by France, Spain and the Pope)?
Or would they carried on fighting?

 

[stnylan]

Originally posted by Kurek
If Owain managed to fight off the English what do you think the results would of been?
Would the English backed off and allowed the country to be independant (Owain had already been recognised by France, Spain and the Pope)?
Or would they carried on fighting?

btw I've sent you a PM

The French might well have helped the Welsh. Spain of course was not in existence at the time. The Pope would have probably stayed semi-neutral - though he would have been inclined to back the English I believe.

The Scots would back the Welsh, and the Irish would fight amongst themselves.

As for the English - alter English history only a little and you've got the perfect situation.

IRL after Henry IV usurped the throne form Richard II there were a number of rebellions, and annoying as these were none really caused too much of a bother. Make them more bothersome. Instead of having rebellions have a full blown civil war taking place in the years 1400-12 - a bit like the Anarchy of Stephen in the 12th century. That should give Wales enough time to get on its feet.

Then have Henry V go off to France as he did historically, in return for some money from Wales to stop the war - or even better in return for a load of longbowmen. You get to a 1419 start without difficulty - and it is at least plausible.

Then along comes Henry VI and England goes down the drain anyway. After that who has need of history

 

[Kurek]

Ooops, meant Castile not Spain, I read somewhere that Wales was recognised by Castile and the Pope when Owain created his Welsh Parliament.
Hmmmm, a full blown civil war... could be intresting.
So, There is a full blown Civil war in England after Henry takes the thrown, the English can't fight off the Welsh revolt. By 1412 England is at peace again, but Owain Glyndwr had has more time to set up the Independant Wales, (He is still alive as he wasnt forced to the Hills ) and a Welsh army has been created,

And now the year is 1419 and Wales stands ready to defend its borders (With friendly relations with France,Scotland and maybe some others and some financial aid) Scotland and France sends small amounts of troops to help defend Wales and to (possibly strike at England)
Owain dies and leaves a young son as heir (The english did not capture his family in this timeline).
Thus Wales is born!

 

[stnylan]

Indeed.

A few little details on the likely civil war. Historically the rebellions were mostly the due to the actions of Edward Mortimer who thought he had a better claim on England's throne than Henry IV. He was supported by the Percies, most powerful noble family in england at the time, largely because they felt hard done by. They had supported Henry IV initially, but he soon became independent of them and they claimed he broke promises etc. Owain Glendower also joined the conspiracies, though this is poorly documented.

So civil war starts in 1401 and initially goes against Henry IV. The Percies win over York, but the Welsh Marcher lords support Henry against Percy and Glendower. The Battle of Shrewsbury is a bloody draw.

Glendower takes this time to start sieging the big castles in the North-West. Henry IV and the Percies pussyfoot around each other for a few years. Then Prince Henry (the to be V) comes onto the scene about 1408. He drives the Percies back and defeats them in a series of campaigns.

Then his dad dies. Henry V wants to make a stab at the French throne. He secures peace in Wales, recognises Glendower as Prince of Wales or something, in return for longbows. Then he sets off across the Channel in 1415 and Agincourt happens.

Mortimer was always a figurehead so he would be killed. The Percies likewise. Perhaps part of the peace was Owain handing over Mortimer?

Anyway, I hope that splurge is useful to you.

 

[Kurek]

Very much so, although I dont want peace! I want bloody war when this scenario starts! I want to fight for Cymru!
So there cant be a peace settlement, but the King still has to go off to France... why would he go off to France if Wales is in a general uprising? Im just making this harder for myself.

 

[stnylan]

Originally posted by Kurek
Very much so, although I dont want peace! I want bloody war when this scenario starts! I want to fight for Cymru!
So there cant be a peace settlement, but the King still has to go off to France... why would he go off to France if Wales is in a general uprising? Im just making this harder for myself.

Because the crown of France looks good

Henry V was very opportunistic, he might seriously have considered gaining France and losing Wales to be a fair trade.

OTOH it's your game so don't let me stop you

 

[Kurek]

Yup, its my game, Im just trying to make it historically feasable, Ive read some AAR's that do things quite... illogical, and I dont like them, well some of them are good.

What year did Henry IV "Usurp" the throne from Richard II?
(I read that Owain Glyndwr served under Richard II in France and in Scotland, so he would not be happy anyway with Henry IV)

How did he come about claming the throne? And why did this Edward Mortimer also claim it?

I read that the Welsh rebellion started in 1400 when Owain and Reginald de Grey, Lord of Ruthin stole land off Owain, when Owain went to the King and courts in London he got laughed at and told that Welsh concerns did not matter, or something along those lines. So Owain went back to Wales, contacted other Welshmen who were disatisfied with the English, raised his banner outside of Ruthin, his followers proclaiming him Prince of Wales, and they burned down Ruthin.
He was supported by the Hanmers, other Norman-Welsh Marchers and the Dean of St Asaph.

 

[stnylan]

Henry IV usurped the throne in 1399. He did so on a swell of support because Richard was unpopular. However, there is evidence that he 'captured' Richard, and then only decided to claim the throne later, as opposed to forcing Richard to accept a Regent. The issue with this is it meant deposing an anoited King. A bad, bad business.

Once Richard was dead Edward Mortimer thought he had the best claim to the throne, being the closest living descendent of Edward III, the previous King. Both Henry and Mortimer could claim descent from the children of Edward III.

If you look at this site and scroll through the England kings you'll see some partial family trees from the period. It'll give you an idea of how messy these relationships got - though unfortunately Mortimer is left off these ones (well, he lost and was never crowned).

Glendowers revolt should be seen historically as part of the chaos caused by usurpation. I mean, for us this is all academic, but at the time it was a national trauma. Indeed as you say Glendower was hardly a friend to Henry IV - which probably also explains his ill-treatment at the hands of the Royal Courts.

Incidentally I know I use the Anlgicised version of Glendower. This is pure laziness on my part. I've never read memorised the other spelling.

 

[Kurek]

Hmmm, Owain was quite upper class Welsh, links with many Nobles so he would be quite well off, so he could of also helped fund Edward Mortimer and supplied welshmen, thus a Civil War breaks out. Add some Scots and we got ourself quite the nice conspiracy.

Ah the Fresian website, I used that many times for my Athens AAR.

EDIT: I just read the name Edmund Mortimer, Edmund, Edward? Which one is correct?

EDIT: Also found out about Owains family, Meredith was his son and Im not sure of his wifes name, they died in the Tower of London, but in this history they can be alive, and Meredith ready to take the throne, shall he adopt the name Owain upon taking the thronw from his father? Or shall a old name from the anals of Welsh History be used?

 

[stnylan]

Damned. Yes, Edmund. My fault.

I hate when I do that. Anyway, probably a sign I've been up too long, so I'm off to bed.

 

[Kurek]

Hehe, well check out the extra Edit on my last post concerning his family, sleep well and thanks for all the help.

 

[stnylan]

Nae problem

Or you could keep Meredith

 

[Kurek]

I read somewhere that around 1404ish Owain had a 10,000 strong army with 2,500 French soldiers as well, so by 1419 would this be even stronger? In my current scenario there is a army with around 9,000 men and really I should play around with the English forces, after a few years of Civil War and I'm guessing that they would have a slight increase in troops in England.

 

[stnylan]

Depends

I'd say 10k is about right for the Welsh, maybe a little depleted after a few years of war.

As for England, after years of civil war the forces would most likely be lower - and add a RR to create rebels to simulate the great lawlessness that often occured in such times.

Of course there are matters of gamebalance here you might want to consider, making England stronger to make your task harder. In that case I would advocate either tweaking England's DP settings, adding a few more troops, or writing some events giving them some extra troops for free (like the enthusiasm for the army random events, but have them as non-randoms). Extra levies from the nobility say. Perhaps also give England manpower in these events to build more troops. I am just thining off the top of my head here, so this could be bs.

 

[Kurek]

Its all good, I could write some events, after I get my head around the event script.
What would be a realistic economic set-up? I read that in battle Owain managed to caputure Reginald de Grey, Lord of Ruthin in battle and demanded 10,000 marks(well marks is what the website said, I think)
And also a question about Eire, I read that when Owain set up his Parliament there was dignitories from France, Spain (I know Spain didnt exist but the website told me, so Im assuming either Castile, Aragorn or both} and from Ireland attended the first parliament.
What would be the most realistic Diplomatic set-up? I thought about a Military Alliance with Ireland, or with France and Scotland and ll of the French Vassals against England, but I dont want to be bogged down in the 100 years war, so maybe good friendly relations with Scotland and France and MIlitary Access, maybe even a Royal Marriage, I read that several of Owains daughters married some English nobles)

 

[stnylan]

Yeah - don't get dragged into the HYW. Access and RM, that sounds good. A military alliance with Eire is a possibility, but if I were you I would start the game with good relations and make forming that alliance to be one of your first goals. Alternatively put Scotland out of the French alliance and ally with her.

France +150 French get Access Royal Marriage
Eire +125
Scotland +125
Castille +50
Papal States +50

Possible alliance with either Eire or Scotland. Possible RMs as well, though I would council against starting with too many RMs.


Don't be scared of the event script. Havard has written an excellent summary of it. I think it became standard with the patches after 1.05. (it got downloaded into your Eu2 folder) Doesn't include the latest triggers afaik, but for this you won't need them.

 

[Kurek]

Does anyone know anything about Owain Glyndwrs family?
I know some small bits, like he was married to Margaret, daughter of Sir David Hanmer, chief justice of the King’s Bench, and Edmund Mortimer married Owains daughter.
And I knew he had a son, although I forget his name...
Does anyone know anything about his family? Names or DOB?'s
I know that most of his family were taken by the English and left in London Tower till they died...