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Cold Star

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Looks like goblin wizards are using poison beams now. I though devs changed that intentionally bu
In M1 your spells were very powerful, the monsters had absolutely no sense for survival whatsoever and the damage thrown at you consisted mostly of physical damage which just made the stone armour more "overpowered".
Stone armor was OP because it blocked all damage, not only physical. The only thing that wasn't blocked were different dots. Why everyone keep telling earth armor in magicka 1 blocked only physical damage?
 

Skullbeco

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He meant that you didn't really have to worry about status effects, so you were invincible-ish

Magicka 2 is based around robes that give status resistance, so lots of enemies use status

Also, if you think about it, enemies have to conjure just like players. It would have been funny if they only queued 1 arcane and 1 water before, since they'd use poison breath thinking it's a water beam.
 

Cold Star

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He meant that you didn't really have to worry about status effects, so you were invincible-ish

Magicka 2 is based around robes that give status resistance, so lots of enemies use status

Also, if you think about it, enemies have to conjure just like players. It would have been funny if they only queued 1 arcane and 1 water before, since they'd use poison breath thinking it's a water beam.

I am pretty sure goblin wizards used some combination of QS before. They use poison beams now.
 

Ferrinus

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Having played some, I have to say that it's still hard to get over the slow and floaty feel most spells in Magicka 2 have. Right now I'd say that only explosive projectiles - SDF, for example - and PBAOE novas have the kind of speed, impact, and graphical/audio punch to make them feel really satisfying to use. Pure boulders still kind of bounce languidly, beams feel hazy and insubstantial, lightning just kind of half-heartedly tickles things...

You may still wet enemies with beams and projectiles. What are you talking about? Examples: QD, QFDS, QRQ, QFS. Just use steam insted of water.

That's true, but it costs more button presses than before and also begins to obsolete water as an element - if steam and water take up the same space in a projectile spell, both wet, and only steam adds damage, why would you ever use water?

Double elements will decrease overall number of spell combinations. We won't be able to cast things like EQSQRAS. We want complex spells for whatever resaon.

ESFSF or ESAFS are pretty powerful and require 5 buttons.

I dispute that EQSQRAS is notably "complex" rather than "long". It's still five elements, it's just slightly slower to conjure. If E and D fused into a singe unique "Wall" element, or if S and F fused into a "Hellfire" element, we'd also have more hypothetical spell combinations to choose from but I don't think it'd be worth either the slowdown or the asymmetry - I prefer to watch the combination/transformation happen on the battlefield rather than in the queue.
 
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Skullbeco

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if steam and water take up the same space in a projectile spell, both wet, and only steam adds damage, why would you ever use water?
The obvious answer is wet ice (since ice can't mix with steam) and I think water rocks push down and interrupt the movement of small enemies.
But besides that, the best use of water that I've found is 4 poisons and 1 water for a spray which is safe, but requires you to spray for the whole duration allowed
 

Argotha

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Juggling vards appears to be a viable tactic, I haven't had a moment vhere one vard stayed on me for more than 15 seconds...

Although forcing a player to constantly change vards to adjust to incoming attacks comes vith an expense of veakening them to a state vhen in order to block a bomb you have to hit EDFFF, vhereas in the old system !EDF vould be enough. It does encourage filling up the queue completely, but it feels less like strategy and more like mashing buttons for more protection.

That, Wan, is exactly why I advocate strengthening the wards. Switching wards needs to be fast, but being forced to fill the 5-element queue to create something viable slows it down.
 
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Cold Star

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Having played some, I have to say that it's still hard to get over the slow and floaty feel most spells in Magicka 2 have. Right now I'd say that only explosive projectiles - SDF, for example - and PBAOE novas have the kind of speed, impact, and graphical/audio punch to make them feel really satisfying to use. Pure boulders still kind of bounce languidly, beams feel hazy and insubstantial, lightning just kind of half-heartedly tickles things...



That's true, but it costs more button presses than before and also begins to obsolete water as an element - if steam and water take up the same space in a projectile spell, both wet, and only steam adds damage, why would you ever use water?



I dispute that EQSQRAS is notably "complex" rather than "long". It's still five elements, it's just slightly slower to conjure. If E and D fused into a singe unique "Wall" element, or if S and F fused into a "Hellfire" element, we'd also have more hypothetical spell combinations to choose from but I don't think it'd be worth either the slowdown or the asymmetry - I prefer to watch the combination/transformation happen on the battlefield rather than in the queue.

You use water to wet yourself, friends, push enemies or items away from you. Or wet ice, yes.
Decreasing the number of spells is bad anyway. We want to conjure lots of different things. That is why original Magicka 2 wasn't so good.
 

Van Silke

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Vith Poison around and a comeback of one-slot Ice and Steam the number of possibilities pretty much doubled. I think.
Note for the future: If you ever do Magicka 3, do not even think about streamlining the system again. The vay to go might be (perhaps) balance, risk and again more focus on poverful chaos other than challenge...

An interesting vay of skyrocketing the chaos vould be to make spells dependant on the order of elements in the queue. That'd skyrocket amounts of literally everything - spell combinations (of course), chaos (from accidentally queueing in other order), learning curve, revards for remembering combos, and even cleverly hidden Magicks. If you have a guy there in the office that'd sit for days and nights covering all differences of combos vith care, give it to him.
For even more chaos and complexity - amount of the same element in the queue slightly changing said element's behavior (i.e. one arcane element being a flat damage, tvo adding a debuff to scale over time, three doubling the range of a spell, four applying said debuff more than once, five doubling the ramp up time etc.)....and I'm avare that I'm spitting out stupid ideas, but it's fun to dream

And Argotha, before you say that it'd go to the other extreme and be vay too complex, unbalanced and unpredictable - just imagine the possiblities! At this point the spellcasting system is knovn by everyone vho have played the thing, everyone have healed their minds from being blovn avay by the original Magicka, and almost all agree, that "More buttons = more pover" is becoming kind of bland over time, hovever amazing the entire rest is. Plus, as someone mentioned, the "novelty" of the system has vorn out, and even DotA 2 uses the simplified system of the thing.

In-topic, things overall feel good, but I can't tell, vhat does adding more D in QRD do? I can't seem to find anything special about more D in QRD other than minimal change of single spike's damage.
 
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Cold Star

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An interesting vay of skyrocketing the chaos vould be to make spells dependant on the order of elements in the queue. That'd skyrocket amounts of literally everything - spell combinations (of course), chaos (from accidentally queueing in other order), learning curve, revards for remembering combos, and even cleverly hidden Magicks. If you have a guy there in the office that'd sit for days and nights covering all differences of combos vith care, give it to him.
For even more chaos and complexity - amount of the same element in the queue slightly changing said element's behavior (i.e. one arcane element being a flat damage, tvo adding a debuff to scale over time, three doubling the range of a spell, four applying said debuff more than once, five doubling the ramp up time etc.)....and I'm avare that I'm spitting out stupid ideas, but it's fun to dream
This! Excactly as I suggested in pianist simulator. Imagine the possibilties. This with also illiminate the problem with cutting water arcana beams. Magicka is not about the balance.
"Also QRD or QDR or RQD or RDQ is barrage of stone ice shards."
They implemented it!
Maybe poison status effect should be timed and have a scaling power?
Po X W,F,A; but you can make 2 poisons if you cast QSWQSW. More poisons make status effect stronger. Deals no damage.
And I was half right about poison!
 
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Argotha

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An interesting vay of skyrocketing the chaos vould be to make spells dependant on the order of elements in the queue...

vay too complex, unbalanced and unpredictable...

The possibilities are many, but implementing it and making every spell at least marginally useful is an obscenely huge task. Let's start here. DS is a projectile with a death AoE. What would SD be?

Furthermore, which takes priority where? What about SDF vs SFD vs DSF vs DFS vs FDS vs FSD. Which does what? Does SD have more or less priority than DF? Does SDF become an SD with extra fire or does it become a DF with extra death? Or is it simply linear, where SD becomes the form in SDF because SD is the first two?

What happens when we go passed 3 element spells? What is SDFSS vs SDSFF or SDFSF vs SDFFS?

That doesn't even scratch the surface.
 
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Skullbeco

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That doesn't even scratch the surface.
A while ago, I was thinking that the first non-shield element in the queue would determine the mechanics of the spell, which would let you add sand to spells like SD becoming a sand beam that does physical damage, bringing back arcane lightning, and letting you conjure any elemental wall instead of them becoming mines
 

Van Silke

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V's aside

I didn't say every spell would be just as useful as any other. After all, around half of M1's spells was practically useless.

I'm going to be equal and call both wizard friends and monsters "subjects".

Well, the difference might be determined by certain element's specifics. Going through your example...

Let's quickly go through what we know about current Earth and Arcane/Death (in force cast)

Earth is a physical projectile, that deals damage upon impact and the longer it's charged, the harder it hits and greater it's range. As AoE it causes an earthquake.

Arcane/death is a magick beam, that acts instantly, and so long as it stays on target it deals flat or exponentially increasing damage, depending on the game. As AoE it's usually simplified to a singular nova.

The casting type still matters, of course.

In such system, there would be additional priority of "components" currently in the queue, where the component (element) gains priority based on the order they've been queued in. So in case of DS, the D has a priority of 5, and S priority of 4.

The priority of each component defines it's behavior, and ideally would be unique to every element, but might be simplified...a bit. Each element in queue regardless of position will add flat damage that's caused on hit.

D (With each charge increases width of the spell and/or weigh of projectiles regardless of position, also (thanks for the suggestion up there) abrades the subject as sand when hit with something non-projectile-ish):
5 - Creates the charge-able projectile, charging it increases overall damage of everything included in it. Increase in damage multiplies with more D in spell
4 - Upon release generates a shockwave from the avatar up to the enemy, causes knockback effect to anything within the shockwave range (cone). It's force multiplies with D and time of conjuring. Increases the speed of projectiles.
3 - Increases the range of the spell, multiplies with more D
2 - Creates an earthquake on hit, size and knockdown force depends on amounts of D
1 - Increases overall damage of the spell based on amount of D
(Because BFBoulder is big as f...ffff...feldspars?)

S (The flat amount of Arcane damage is added to the overall spell with each charge regardless of the position):
5 - Creates the beam, dealing flat Arcane damage every 0.5 second (every tick counts as hit), it's range and duration multiplies with more S
4 - Creates an AoE on hit. Range scales with S
3 - When hits, inflicts the subject with status of Decay, causing him to receive additional damage from every source. Adds 1% of damage increase per hit and is instantly nullified by dealing Life "damage" to decaying subject.
2 - Passes through physical objects, but is blocked by shields regardless of initial properties (if passes through a subject, it counts as a collision/hit)
1 - Multiplies Arcane damage of the spell based on amount of S
(Because if you hit 5xArcane you want to feel that power of the laser of doom)

F (Regardless of the position ignites (or refreshes ignition on) subjects on hit, which decreases over time and eventually goes out unless refreshed):
5 - Creates a fire spray dealing damage in cone per 0.5 seconds, it's size multiplies with F
4 - Creates fiery AoE on-hit, it's size is determined by amounts of F (never wider than the "end" of the cone's range)
3 - When refreshing the target's burning status, increases it's damage exponentially
2 - Ensures ignition regardless of subject's statuses.
1 - When hitting already ignited subject, causes combustion, doubling the burning damage
(Because some people just want to watch the world burn.)
So yeah, if you queue up DS, D gets number of 5, S gets number of 4 so you get good old rock projectile with an arcane AoE (that also deals arcane damage to the subject itself)

If you queue up SD, however, S gets priority of 5 and D gets priorit of 4, so you get an Arcane/Death beam that creates a shockwave when you stop conjuring, handy for when you suspect your subject to close in while you're conjuring but want to have a window.

So let's quickly run over the rest of spells you've typed in, shall we?

SDF - wider than normal beam with shockwave that boosts burning
SFD - wide beam that creates fiery AoE each tick and is slightly longer
DSF - rock projectile with Arcane AoE that boosts burning
DFS - rock projectile with fiery AoE that applies Decay on hit
FDS - wide fire spray that applies Decay and creates shockwave afterwards
FSD - wide fire spray with arcane AoEs going around and highly increased range
SDSFF - wide arcane beam that applies Decay, ignites no matter what, combusts violently with each tick and creates a shockwave afterward
SDFSF - wide arcane beam that burns more over time, passes through all objects and combusts violently, creating a shockwave afterward
SDFFS - powerful wide arcane beam that ignites no matter what and boosts burning (also creating shockwave)

And the surface has been scratched. Hooray...

[edit]
(Seriously though, ideally every spell would be unique, but first you have to find a guy who'd agree on spending weeks on designing each spell separately, that's as much as I could come up with in this time)
 
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Argotha

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Thank you. That was well thought-out and an interesting read. It has potential, but I'm not convinced the whole puzzle can be solved. What would you do with shield?

Also, the earth's linecast sounds very similar to the weapon-charged earth line-cast.

Fire certainly sounds like it would be more interesting. I would say that one of those priorities for fire should, instead, detonate all of the burn stacks. Cuz I've always loved that kind of mechanic.
 

Van Silke

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The vhole "puzzle" is kind of easy, if you consider that half of the elements cancel each other and each one is going to have something special, and although not alvays exceptionally original, if I had some time I'd do the same kind of "charts" for every element in-game, so that although not all combinations are exceptionally useful, there'd be at least some variety.

Shield is certainly a tricky subject, but after all it cancels itself, so there can be only one Shield inside of the spell. If I had to quickly imagine it's variations, I'd go vith such:
5 - Creates a spherical dome facing avay from the caster (classic M1 shape), that absorbs all elements queued aftervards. (So if ES shield gets hit by DS, only D vill go through and it'll lose it's arcane priorities. It'll also block shockvaves, AoE parts and such. If there are no elements, it'll act just like the normal MWW variant
4 - Creates a vall/storm/mines/vhatever is currently possible based on the component that is of spell's priority 5.
3 - Creates a Force Prism. (because I disliked idea of a Magick able to be cast only via Focus and at the same time adored my little Prism friends)
2 - Creates Area Prism. (same)
1 - Creates Aura in the cast area, that affects subjects in it like vards, in the shape of dulled circular sector of decent size.
Because I'm too lazy to really think about it, the Shield vould be truly unique and above all other elements.
In case of 2 and 3 the spell is being conjured normally by the created Prism. The priorities don't change, so after queueing up, let's say, SQFEA, it'll send out the beam vith priorities S-5, QF-4, A-2, and same vith Area ones, though I'd have to come up vith vhole separate trees of elemental properties for area casts and "Shield-4" casts. Majority of properties vould translate from force cast trees vith a tvist suitable for cast types.

As for the mentioned shockvave, I rather had in mind visuals similiar to those of M1 Air push, but much longer, slightly thinner, and vith sand/dust particles so it knocks stuff back and aside (not dovn). Sort of a burst push, you'd say.

Detonating the burn stacks might be funny, though it'd be kind of avkvard to pull it off, like if you do simply FFFFF then all stacks vould combust instantly. Perhaps it's stil better than Fire's priority 1.

I'll vrite dovn all trees in somevhere, but I doubt it'd be anything more than an odd curiosity.
 

Kaduseon

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I think that's going too far in the opposite direction to the first iteration of Magicka 2.

If something's too simple, then it feels dumb (launch version of Magicka 2 compared to Magicka 1 in terms of spell casting).

If something's too complicated, then people might not care (the initial difficulties of learning Natural Selection 2 compared to the initial difficulties learning Counter Strike: Global Offensive).

Personally, I think having the order matter kind-of breaks the Magicka flavour. Magicka has been about the elements that you queue rather than the order in which you queue them. Singular ice, steam, and (apparently) poison make a weird case like how RRQQAAA and QQRRAAA are the same, but different from QQAAARR and AAARRQQ - order matters here (must queue ice before lightning), but it's still down to the combination. If you wanted to implement consistency in a horrific way, then you could make it that you'd have to press QR, QF, or QS at the same time.

Maybe in some other fantastical, blown-out-of-proportions spell casting system this could be great, but I wouldn't use Magicka to do it. Magicka is some sort of combination of clumsy and elegant, but making order matter could easily flip it to severely uncoordinated and idiomatic.

There was that Gauntlet game made by Arrowhead that did do it with order mattering for the Wizard, but he had 3 elements and a queue size of 2.
 

Van Silke

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It's alvays hard vhen the "spirit of the franchise" comes up. Everyone agrees hov it looks like, but personal perceptions vary horribly.