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Le_Carabinier

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My question to the developpers : will France begin the game, in 1936, with the huge reserve of WW1-era FT-17 infantry tanks it historically had ?

Renault-FT-17-WWI-Tank-title.jpg



In the end of the First World War, the Entente put their focus away from tanks, and instead favored swarms of small, light armored vehicles. 4000 FT-17s were built in France and in America, and after the war, it was widely exported. Among others, Poland, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia recieved a number of them.

France kept a huge reserve of them, close to 2000 tanks. They served as training tanks, and were intended to be used by reserve units in case of war. That happened in 1939, when more than 500 of them were sent to newly created units, and in 1940, 550 more were put back in service during a desperate counter-attack against the German invasion. Germany, in the end, captured 1700 FT-17s. They were used in training role, anti-partisan duties, and some of them were used in combat in 1944 against the Western Allies in France. Vichy France had a few of them in Africa, that fought in Operation Torch.

FT-17_color_photo_1940.jpg

German soldiers with a captured FT-17 tank


On all terrains where they were used, they were slaughtered by superior tanks, being hopelessly outdated. However, their presence on the battlefield was a reality, and, due to the numbers used, a thousand of them on frontline duty in 1939/40, far from anecdotal.

Hearts of Iron IV has a reserve system for outdated material, and a base Tank unit representing World War One-era armor. France will start the game with the challenges it historically faced : an unwillingness to go to war, and a rigid doctrinal thought, the latter being representend in-game by a debuff, leaving her ill-equipped to face the rising threat of the Third Reich.
Therefore, it should only be fair to give France the vast reserve of aging material it historically maintained, so troops can be trained with them, reserve units can be formed using them, and Allies can be provided with them. Of course, they probably won't have much success against Panzer IIIs and M11/39 tanks, but it would be a really nice addition to the flavour of the game to being a campaign as France in 1936, and see in your reserve materials tabs the old winners of World War One, waiting to be awaken once more.
 
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Zoob

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If they are in, I'll just lend lease them all to the Republicans fighting in Spain. [snark]Then the nationalists are sure to win[/snark]
 
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Victor Cortez

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Very interesting.

I knew about the tank but I didn't know they produced so many of them. It should be easy to replicate in game. At the very least, they should start with maximum efficiency at producing this vehicle.
 

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The "flavour vehicle" for the level 1 German tank seems to be the Leichttraktor and Grosstraktor, if memory serves, so I don't see why not :) .
 

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Possibly a bit off-topic, but was this the tank that was so revolutionary because it was the first to actually be given a turret :) ?
 

Gamer_1745

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Possibly a bit off-topic, but was this the tank that was so revolutionary because it was the first to actually be given a turret :) ?
Yes, the turret is part of it. All major elements of the modern tank are found in the FT-17. Rear engine, track layout, turret.
 
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TheRomanRuler

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On all terrains where they were used, they were slaughtered by superior tanks, being hopelessly outdated. However, their presence on the battlefield was a reality, and, due to the numbers used, a thousand of them on frontline duty in 1939/40, far from anecdotal.
And even new 2015 assault rifle can`t penetrate it`s armor. And during WW2 many nations still had lack of AT weaponry, so giving these tanks to infantry divisions will make them much stronger in battle. Assault against machine gun position might cause huge casualties to infantry, but if you have armor, even obsolete The Great War remnants, you might not suffer a single loss.
 

Ibn_Solmyr

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Didn't know that FT-17 service had lasted that much, thanks for the OP. Incredible that the Germans still utilised them (even if quite anecdotal) against France Liberation !

And so I hope they will be in the game too ! Maybe we'll know it tomorrow with France DD. :rolleyes:
 
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LordOfWar16

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I mean, we have interwar equipment in the game, so i dont see why not. Sure, it will probably replaced pretty fast but probably could help out republic spain to farm some field experience and/or to give it to some garrisons.
 
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joerd9

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I don't see a rational reason for all armament stockpiles being zero, as suggested above. Things like that can be defined in the scenario files, I assume. So why not give France a huge stockpile of level 1 armor for the 36 scenario?
Re: level 1 armor for Germany? Will this really be the loltraktor? :p Not Pz.1?
 
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keynes2.0

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Possibly a bit off-topic, but was this the tank that was so revolutionary because it was the first to actually be given a turret :) ?

Turret tanks were considered before rhombus tanks actually. Rhombus tanks were just logical given the trenches of the western front.

A stockpile of 2000 FT-17 tanks would be really useful for training purposes. France could have the best trained tank force in the world come 1939 when they could re-equip those divisions with new tanks. It might be overpowered to give them their FT-17s for this reason since there's really no reason for the player to not use them to get three years of free training.
 
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LordOfWar16

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Turret tanks were considered before rhombus tanks actually. Rhombus tanks were just logical given the trenches of the western front.
yeah, WW1 tanks werent meant for tank to tank combat. They were basicly assault guns to break through the enemy lines without getting shredded by enemy machineguns. Similar to the early german StuG, PzIV, Churchill and B1 char. They were converted from assault guns/infantry support to anti-tank combat.
 

Dromido

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The FT-17 is useless, it is a WW1 era tank NOT designed for modern WWII warfare. It would just get sliced through like butter so why bother? If anything I still think it should be added in due to historical factors who knows what you can use em for.
 
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Jorvikson

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Iran also had 100 of these
 
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TheRomanRuler

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The FT-17 is useless, it is a WW1 era tank NOT designed for modern WWII warfare. It would just get sliced through like butter so why bother? If anything I still think it should be added in due to historical factors who knows what you can use em for.
Well tell me, can you, or can you not, penetrate it`s armor with even most modern assault rifle? No, you can not. So they have value against infantry. And just how many nations at the time had enough AT weapons? None. So even tough they would not have been war winning weapon even if there would have been 20 000 of them, they still had their uses. Only after mid WW2 did they completely use their value due to nations actually having enough AT weapons. Reason nations stop using old military equipment is not that they are no longer useful at anything, reason is that they simply are not worth the cost. But if you already have many of them, during WW2 you used it. Many nations were already thinking of switching to semi-automatic rifles, but during the war none of them hesitated to arm soldiers with WW1 bolt actions. Becouse you had them.
I am not suggesting adding muskets to game even if some Volkssturm would have had them, but since there were 2 000 of FT-17 in official reserve and in actual use, they should be represented.
 
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LordOfWar16

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The FT-17 is useless, it is a WW1 era tank NOT designed for modern WWII warfare. It would just get sliced through like butter so why bother? If anything I still think it should be added in due to historical factors who knows what you can use em for.
for non major countries those can give them a vital edge over their neighbours if they dont have thousands of tanks lined up like germany or russia for example. They certainly WILL help in the spanish civil war one way or another. Having bad armor is still better than having no armor whatsoever. If you are fighting mainly infantry you will have an massive advantage over the enemy.
 
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keynes2.0

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The FT-17 is useless, it is a WW1 era tank NOT designed for modern WWII warfare. It would just get sliced through like butter so why bother? If anything I still think it should be added in due to historical factors who knows what you can use em for.

Compare the specs of the FT-17 to the Panzer I, Panzer(38)t and T-26 and get back to me.

Germany didn't have a better tank then the FT-17 until the Panzer II series A entered production in December 1937, two years into the game timeframe. If the Panzer I was good enough for combat duty, the FT-17 was.
 
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