France?

[ETAIPOS]

My mistake, SahintheFalcon, I didn't mention it is for SP. But still, thanks for the insight from MP, as it truly tests various theories.

I had not played HoI4 since, I think, July last year, when a line of two 7inf+2Art, SupAA divisions was almost enough to stop any AI, at that time forts had no meaning at all, but now, with much better AI templates, they work quite well in SP. Forts on italian border saved me 10-15 divisions (compared to my earlier playthrough, though I had more and better mountaineers too), so I'd say they were worth to build those 4 and using focus.On the other hand, extend the maginot focus was IMHO a waste, as those forts never came under attack.
I will definitely try only MIL production to check how it works, but I remember it worked well in my old games as Poland, when I only built 1-2 CIC before the war. Later I had German and Italian factories to make an army to defeat Soviets

The challenge in SP is that AI UK is very far from competent. You have to make planes, or you will not have air cover when you need it most. You need to import oil to make ships as you need to support UK at sea, or they will be crushed by Italians.
The only thing you can expect from it is to grind Axis planes over S England and English Channel.
You even have to cheat, as AI won't consisder providing you with LL of 30 naval fighters/bombers you need to replace losses on Bearn taken while you saved British Med Squadron from Italians, even though they have 600 such planes stored, AND you are providing them with 1000 rifles and some AT guns per month.
It will just waste troops in invasions - in the game I described above, UK decided to launch invasion in Gdansk and managed to loose 20 divisions there, while I was closing on Ruhr and Czech border from the south...

 

[Kaosium]

This here is the single biggest fallacy in alllllll of Hearts of Iron 4, and it's one of the reasons my winrate is near 100%. Building 1.25 per month for 42 months is actually FAR better than building 3 per month for 18 months. Let me rephrase that for you:
Option A: Build 1.25 military factories per month for 42 months straight.
Option B. Build 0 military factories per month for 26 months, then build 3 per month for 18 months.

What you (and admittedly 75% of the playerbase) is advocating is a sacrificing TWO YEARS of military production in favor of a higher factory count at the end. Having a higher factory count doesn't mean jack if it takes you so long to even start making those factories that they have no time to produce anything.

What truly matters is your aggregate production, not your final production rate. If you build civilian factories for even a single year, it will literally take until 1940-1942 (depending on your nation) for you to even break even with having made military factories from Day 1, if we are measuring aggregate production. Please, test it out for yourself: Delete all your men and build only Weapons I, and check your logistics tab for how much have made by 1940. The only benefit to your strat is that with a higher military factory count later on, you have greater flexibility to make more advanced equipment. In other words, a higher percentage of your aggregate production will be the more advanced equipment, but in my experience this effect is totally dwarfed by the much more common scenario in which war begins before 1940.

I realize that you will produce more equipment at a low rate that will be obsolete by 1940. WIth France I never have any difficulty outproducing my manpower, so what is the real benefit to having all the extra obsolete equipment? I end up with plenty of that already and give it to the Spanish Republicans etc. I've tried it your way, you end up with a lower production frontier and smaller production potential because you cannot trade nearly as much because you don't have as nearly as many civilian factories to trade with.

Just putting the original six factories on Weapons one and putting the bonus factories from the industrial tree there too gives me enough weapons to outproduce my manpower building Mountaineers and Marines, even though I usually have the extra 1% from National Mobilization, why would I want even more weapons one or 75 mm artillery etc?

Try it my way sometime.

 

[dave1233]

I realize that you will produce more equipment at a low rate that will be obsolete by 1940. WIth France I never have any difficulty outproducing my manpower, so what is the real benefit to having all the extra obsolete equipment? I end up with plenty of that already and give it to the Spanish Republicans etc. I've tried it your way, you end up with a lower production frontier and smaller production potential because you cannot trade nearly as much because you don't have as nearly as many civilian factories to trade with.

Just putting the original six factories on Weapons one and putting the bonus factories from the industrial tree there too gives me enough weapons to outproduce my manpower building Mountaineers and Marines, even though I usually have the extra 1% from National Mobilization, why would I want even more weapons one or 75 mm artillery etc?

Try it my way sometime.

What equipment is going to be obselete by 1940? basic inf and inf 1 are the only infantry weapons you should ever produce, 1936 planes will no be obsolete in 1940 as there will not be enough 1940 planes flying around at that point, 1936 anti tank is normally enough if you are building anti tank. If you produce all of those then you can fill those lines up first and just tech 1939 arty ahead of time and you will never have to produce 1936 arty.

 

[SahintheFalcon]

I realize that you will produce more equipment at a low rate that will be obsolete by 1940. WIth France I never have any difficulty outproducing my manpower, so what is the real benefit to having all the extra obsolete equipment? I end up with plenty of that already and give it to the Spanish Republicans etc. I've tried it your way, you end up with a lower production frontier and smaller production potential because you cannot trade nearly as much because you don't have as nearly as many civilian factories to trade with.

Just putting the original six factories on Weapons one and putting the bonus factories from the industrial tree there too gives me enough weapons to outproduce my manpower building Mountaineers and Marines, even though I usually have the extra 1% from National Mobilization, why would I want even more weapons one or 75 mm artillery etc?

Try it my way sometime.

The higher production frontier becomes relevant only if war doesn't begin until 1940, at which point I will freely admit that your strategy is superior. And for certain games with certain rulesets, it is appropriate. However, I would not consider it to be the safest strat unless the rules specifically make it difficult for Germany to touch France until 1940. That awesome production potential that you strive for will be irrelevant if you've been capitulated.

Trading usually doesn't ramp up until about mid-1938 when military production really begins to outstrip domestic resource supply. In fact, you will be unlikely to run completely out of civilian factories until at least 1941. So if war begins in 1939 or sooner, you just haven't had enough time to build enough equipment to stop the Germans. Fully equipping your divisions is not enough - it's vital to have a strategic reserve of tens of thousands of guns if possible. Considering all of these factors, I would consider it an enormous luxury to even be able to make Weapons II or Artillery II. Switching to those too early can and will cause your demise if Germany attacks quickly.

It's Germany that is under pressure to conquer quickly before the Allies ramp up their war machine, and one of the key weaknesses is that Germany often has no choice but to attack as soon as they have a lot of men in the field (in other words, they don't have the luxury of sitting back and building up a stockpile). Essentially, a good Germany player will attack quickly, and a good France player should attempt to hold the line and drain Germany's stockpile first. This can only be done by making the most basic of weaponry from the start, and by making military factories from the start.

 

[Kaosium]

The higher production frontier becomes relevant only if war doesn't begin until 1940, at which point I will freely admit that your strategy is superior. And for certain games with certain rulesets, it is appropriate. However, I would not consider it to be the safest strat unless the rules specifically make it difficult for Germany to touch France until 1940. That awesome production potential that you strive for will be irrelevant if you've been capitulated.

Trading usually doesn't ramp up until about mid-1938 when military production really begins to outstrip domestic resource supply. In fact, you will be unlikely to run completely out of civilian factories until at least 1941. So if war begins in 1939 or sooner, you just haven't had enough time to build enough equipment to stop the Germans. Fully equipping your divisions is not enough - it's vital to have a strategic reserve of tens of thousands of guns if possible. Considering all of these factors, I would consider it an enormous luxury to even be able to make Weapons II or Artillery II. Switching to those too early can and will cause your demise if Germany attacks quickly.

It's Germany that is under pressure to conquer quickly before the Allies ramp up their war machine, and one of the key weaknesses is that Germany often has no choice but to attack as soon as they have a lot of men in the field (in other words, they don't have the luxury of sitting back and building up a stockpile). Essentially, a good Germany player will attack quickly, and a good France player should attempt to hold the line and drain Germany's stockpile first. This can only be done by making the most basic of weaponry from the start, and by making military factories from the start.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote here, but I think we're talking about different scenarios. I usually delay my discovery of Weapons II until later in '39 in part because going through the '39 techs I find the three construction techs, a Tank and Land Doctrine to be a higher priority most all of the time and that also allows my stockpile of Weapons One to reach 10k because I do indeed want a healthy surplus of weapons before I switch over to Weapons 2. Naturally when I play intending to fight in '38 over Czechoslovakia I also alter my strategy to achieve the necessities of that scenario as well.

A little while back I saw an article which claimed Paradox had sold 500k copies of Hearts of Iron IV. I've been in the multiplayer lobby, what percentage of the playing base do you suspect they represent?