France: to Maginot or not to Maginot?

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Secret Master

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Without looking at the manpower situation of France in HOI4, I can't tell you whether it is worth the effort to continue building fortifications.

After all, the Maginot Line wasn't just a bizarre fetish of French leadership, but a response to the very real demographic problems facing France at the time.

The worse my manpower situation, the more likely I am to go down the fortification path.
 
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rafan

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From what we know when country is at peace we can get 5 focuses a year.
That means we can get 18-19 focuses befere september 1 1939.

But time will grow shorter if we will go with littel Entente. ( to 12-13 focuses).
If war starts with suthetland we may barely be able to use some industry focuses, reform land army (ofensive), and create littel entente.

So if we want to go to war in 1940 defensive focuse will most likly be beter but if we want early war and littel entente then its ofensive focuses.
 

hkrommel

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A lot of guys are saying go offensive. The Soviets beat the Nazis using defensive battle plans, especially at Stalingrad and Kursk which decided the Eastern Front. Depending on game difficulty I would stick to the defensive plan on anything above normal play. You can probably roll the AI on normal using any tactic.

The Soviets had much, much more space to work with, plus they had terrible infrastructure. France had really good infrastructure and not much space. The Soviets also had millions (and millions) more military-eligible people.
 
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There are four ways into France, and any thoughts I had of cowering behind concrete from Dunkirk to the Riviera ended when podcat said the other day that forts would still be omnidirectional – it means that a single breach anywhere is probably terminal. The price of all those forts is paid by a greatly diminished army and airforce, who now find those massive guns and minefields have miraculously swung 180 degrees to face west. It negates the whole purpose of the Maginot – to try and compensate for their severe manpower shortage vis a vis Germany. Quite rightly, the game also says that army reform isn’t possible if the line keeps growing and the old thinking prevails.

4 isn’t going to have the lumpen predictability of 3, so with any luck, building north to the Channel will just prompt Germany to do a Tannenbaum through Switzerland instead. Hopefully the game will also emulate the political consequences of extending the line, alienating the Belgians and their naïve hopes of neutrality, pushing them towards an enemy from whom they now have no defence. I also don’t want a fifth way of entry through a fascist Spain, so I’ll do what it takes to ensure Franco loses – yet another reason to use my factories to make other stuff than bunkers and barbed wire.

I’ll be supporting de Gaulle, who despises Brits and Americans only marginally less than he hates the Germans. What his views were on the petite entente I’ve no idea, but that’s the way I’m going to go. The entente gives me manpower parity with Germany, and not sinking everything into the Maginot frees up the resources to build a small but perfectly-formed army and airforce. I don’t think de Gaulle would be ‘offensive’ in the sense of rushing in at the first opportunity, but would counterpunch hard if Germany overextends herself. As for Mussolini, he’s an opportunist who will only kick if his opponent is down. If AI Italy acts strictly in her own best interests, she will wait and see which way the wind is blowing before coming through the Alps.
 
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France is an interesting one. If you do but a wall from swiss border to the channel can the French army hold off the Germans? Any other option is a non starter if France is knocked down like there were in HoI3.

I would like to see the player given the change not to have these issues.
 
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Denkt

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We don't know how powerful fortifications are. Think how many factories you can build for your wall, and factories are always useful.
 

hkrommel

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massive guns and minefields have miraculously swung 180 degrees to face west.

Yeah, I was really hoping the omnidirectional forts would be something they would fix in HoI 4. :(

Realistically even if the Germans capture the Maginot it would be a thorn in their side due to having to clear the minefields, poor infrastructure, bottlenecks, etc.
 

Axe99

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And surrender...

Haha, good call :). Well, I'm hoping I'll be able to be a GiE, although I did mean historically try and defend as they did, moving into Belgium to the Dyle line and whatnot, and see if I can still hold Germany. I'll only surrender if the Germans make me :).
 

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I don't think defensive works that well. I read a really good AAR that describes how it goes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France
Of course, the French player did make a couple of stupid errors, above everything else committing the reserve to battle for no reason whatsoever and leaving nothing to counter an eventual breakthrough. The German player did a stupid move, but the French one was stupider.
 
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Khezef

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Has anyone got the USSR version of OP's picture?
 

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I don't think defensive works that well. I read a really good AAR that describes how it goes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

Actually, had Gamelin been playing the game better, it might have worked well. After all, most of the Maginot Line only started surrendering after Petain surrendered the entire country.

A sounder defensive strategy, and/or a better line of forts going to the coast, might have made a significant difference. Hell, subordinate commanders pointed out the serious deficiencies of the Dyle Plan, and they were planning defensive warfare, too.

I still think a real offensive while Poland was still in the fight would have been a better idea, but only because even if France only seized portions of the Rhineland or other German territory, it would have hurt Germany in the critical first stages of the war. But I wouldn't discount the value of defensive doctrines if employed properly.

Remember: if France just doesn't fall, Germany more or less eventually starves for resources and food. Dragging the war out with defensive strategies against an opponent with resource deficiencies is a valid way to wage a campaign. Getting suckered into over committing reserves is not.
 
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There were a lot of things that the French did wrong the first time - doctrinal and commanders. Depending on how they simulate demographics, as others have said, a sustained multi-year offensive for France should really not be possible unless a giant portion of their forces are made up of British, Dutch, and Belgian troops. If Germany doesn't attack Russia, and somehow Japan does not launch the attack on Pearl Harbor, I think Germany would still beat that Western coalition.

I think the fun part of HOI for me is trying to accomplish ahistorical things. What if France had a better plan of resistance? What if Germany stopped invading the USSR at a more sustainable frontline? What if Germany won on the African front? Is there a way for China to beat Japan? Could Japan topple British India and Siberia, too?

Beating France as Germany won't be too difficult. It will be a good learning experience, but ultimately the game is built on enough rails that you, as Germany, should defeat France almost no matter what. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing.
 

hkrommel

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If Germany doesn't attack Russia, and somehow Japan does not launch the attack on Pearl Harbor

I doubt either of these things happen if France is still in the fight in a major capacity. It's too risky to open up another front like that. The AI certainly should not start a war with the US and USSR, #1 and #2 in terms of total military and industrial power, if its western border is not secure (it was stupid of the Axis to do that IRL but at least they didn't leave France alive :p).
 
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dragoon9105

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Honestly, The game is less built on Rails and more a roadway system. Germany, America, and the Soviets from what we have seen have so many different paths that unless the AI is told to do the same thing every game, the Game could go anywhere.

Germany could carve up the Balkans and Eastern Europe with diplomacy, Side with China and generally become a respectable power in europe again, France without Germany invading might have a Russian backed Coup and the British will find themselves forced to side with the Axis as a Communist Coalition threatens to partition Germany and Italy. While the US has its own civil war when Commies try and overthrow the Government after Roosevelt's assassination.

Hitler might be Assassinated and a Communist Coup could put Germany into the Soviets camp, Which inspires Facists in France to Seize power and form a Bloc with Franco's Spain and Italy. With britain alone and weak the US decides to enact Plan red and 'liberate canada' and Form thier own Block of American democracies independent from Communist, Facist or Monarchist control. Afterwards Britain falls into the Fascist Entente with a Goal of getting back at the US.

Things might proceed as Normal but then the British convince Truman to enact Operation Unthinkable, and the world is driven into WW3 just as the last fires of WW2 die out.

Or maybe Germany just decides to Back the Chinese over Japan and Pearl harbor never happens, A Facist China wins less Sympathy in the US and the US and Japan form their own Bloc while Europe burns.

Honestly even if they make the AI take normal historical paths by default I hope they keep an option in game setup to put AI behavior to Historical, 'Normal' or Absolutely Bonkers. I know which one i'd choose most of the time.
 

KiwiNoob

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Actually, had Gamelin been playing the game better, it might have worked well. After all, most of the Maginot Line only started surrendering after Petain surrendered the entire country.

A sounder defensive strategy, and/or a better line of forts going to the coast, might have made a significant difference. Hell, subordinate commanders pointed out the serious deficiencies of the Dyle Plan, and they were planning defensive warfare, too.

I still think a real offensive while Poland was still in the fight would have been a better idea, but only because even if France only seized portions of the Rhineland or other German territory, it would have hurt Germany in the critical first stages of the war. But I wouldn't discount the value of defensive doctrines if employed properly.

Remember: if France just doesn't fall, Germany more or less eventually starves for resources and food. Dragging the war out with defensive strategies against an opponent with resource deficiencies is a valid way to wage a campaign. Getting suckered into over committing reserves is not.

I should have put a smiley face on the end of my post. That was mostly just for chuckles.

I've seen a lot of your replies and was wondering if you've you ever thought of changing your name from Secret Master to Devils Advocate? ;)
 
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