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Jul 15, 2007
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And so will I, since much of my arguments are based on the empirical evidence of like 6 Polands who where mostly played by omnicidal maniacs (no offence) I will have to wait for ysomeone who actually saw a decent to clarify things. I seem to remeber that Gots once did a strong PolRussia, but I also remember Pewt commenting that even then it was weaker than a regular Russia.

Well i am still working on my best poland strategy, but poland problem is that it:
Start Mercantilist (no chances for trade).
Is surrounded by russia, austria, sweden/denmark, ottomans and brandenburg.
Lithuania is poor in trade goods, so inheriting it does not give much tech income.
Bohemia is part of HRE, so it is annoying, aspecialy as they start emperor.

So basicaly you need to PU bohemia(rich lands of your culture) and hungary(not so rich but your culture group) to get anywhere.
And the fact austria want bohemia like allways is just a pain in the ass. Also good thing to know is you just need to conquer crimea(salt, wine, iron and ports).
Conquering russia is a good plan, as long as you don't take the poor provinces(ryazan for example, makes a great vassal).

Good thing for poland it is almost ready to be westernized (starts innovate). So you can just own everyone when you modernize your military.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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My game-winning strategy is to PU France, England, and Castile. I'd also DoW Byzantium on day 1 w/o CB and annexing at full BB. I also apparently only need 3k to conquer all of North Africa and 10k for the Ottoman Empire, which then I'd release as vassals. I have the best strategy in the world.
 

stnikolauswagne

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Iwanov, this is the last time I will mention it: Stop playing this game like a SP game, in your strategy you antagonize: The OE (Crimea is kinda important for them), Austria (they want Bohemia) and Russia (they want to live) and since you dont stand a chance against all of them you need to make compromises.
 
Jul 15, 2007
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Iwanov, this is the last time I will mention it: Stop playing this game like a SP game, in your strategy you antagonize: The OE (Crimea is kinda important for them), Austria (they want Bohemia) and Russia (they want to live) and since you dont stand a chance against all of them you need to make compromises.

Well actualy Austria wanting to have everything is not anything like playing SP...

Also, early on, russia is not any kind of threat. But you got point that antagonizing turkey might be bad, but you also cannot give them all they want(because then they will become too powerfull, and you never want turkey bullying around). But as russia early is not a threat, antagonizing austria, is not so bad, as long as you keep them at bay(or manage to kill them off, or make them agree you keeping bohemia - actualy best is make them agree on you keeping bohemia, and then allying them).
 

stnikolauswagne

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Well actualy Austria wanting to have everything is not anything like playing SP...
Austria does not want _everything_, but bohemia is a nice cluster of provinces and can usually be taken with cores, quite useful overall.
Also, early on, russia is not any kind of threat.
They might later be, though.
But you got point that antagonizing turkey might be bad, but you also cannot give them all they want(because then they will become too powerfull, and you never want turkey bullying around).
Its not "all they want", but if you dont give them their landbridge the will have designs on your lands they otherwise might not have, and even without the landbridge they can seriously threaten you, especially if there is no mamlucks player.
But as russia early is not a threat, antagonizing austria, is not so bad, as long as you keep them at bay(or manage to kill them off, or make them agree you keeping bohemia
So because neither Austria nor Russia can threaten you in the first 10 or 20 years its fine to make sure both hate your guts if they survive? Suuuure, also why the heck should the OE let you do such a thing? You also completely ignore the northern German player and the Scandinavian player who both usually have designs on your baltic lands, so you are surrounded by nations that dont want you to live.
- actualy best is make them agree on you keeping bohemia, and then allying them).
Why would they ally you? I see little benefit as Austria in becoming a quasi polish vassal when you WILL be more powerful than them even without Bohemia. They got 4 Gold provinces while you got none, they got easy acces to trade, which gives them an incredibly strong Ecconomy while poland can never really catch up. Also they have much better and richer lands, which in combination with emperorship gives them higher Forcelimits and more manpower, so dont underestimate Austria.
 
Jul 15, 2007
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Austria does not want _everything_, but bohemia is a nice cluster of provinces and can usually be taken with cores, quite useful overall.

They might later be, though.

Its not "all they want", but if you dont give them their landbridge the will have designs on your lands they otherwise might not have, and even without the landbridge they can seriously threaten you, especially if there is no mamlucks player.

So because neither Austria nor Russia can threaten you in the first 10 or 20 years its fine to make sure both hate your guts if they survive? Suuuure, also why the heck should the OE let you do such a thing? You also completely ignore the northern German player and the Scandinavian player who both usually have designs on your baltic lands, so you are surrounded by nations that dont want you to live.

Why would they ally you? I see little benefit as Austria in becoming a quasi polish vassal when you WILL be more powerful than them even without Bohemia. They got 4 Gold provinces while you got none, they got easy acces to trade, which gives them an incredibly strong Ecconomy while poland can never really catch up. Also they have much better and richer lands, which in combination with emperorship gives them higher Forcelimits and more manpower, so dont underestimate Austria.

Well, if you remove bohemia from HRE, they will have no reason to conquer it(non-core land for 36 infamy?). And actualy poland can catch up with tech if you westernize, and take good slider moves. But of course, you can just conquer land around austria capital if you are strong enough, then force them to release vassals, and then just annex them.

But i think leaving austria alive, if you ally them is good, because you won't have to deal with france for example(or milan)

And no, i do not underestimate emperor. Certainly if a very good player plays austria, if you tried taking bohemia without succeding, you can just change your attitude, and offer them alliance, and go conquer russia, and golden horde.

But Ottomans without landbridge, can be taken down much easier than with it(just ally with venice and austria, then stomp them (first in greece, then in asia)- with landbridge it is not so easy). And ottomans are so going to be pain in the butt if they ally with russia for example. Also, you can just offer them pass thru your lands instead of landbridge(this will make ottomans not to attack you, because he won't want to lose his passage, even for the risky attempt for landbridge. So if you can stop ottomans from getting landbrige, it is better for you. If not, they might be not interesed in you, but they may be, just for some nice provinces like kiev...

You say to me, how to play as poland, but i know clearly how to do so. You say me to stay small, weak and don't piss anybody off, but i say i want to become strong nation. And as poland in mp, you just can't do it, without pissing someone off (i mean, at least russia will be allways your enemy).

And austria do not start as emperor, so if for example burgundy will become emperor, they got a problem.
 

Atlanteax

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Iwanov, this is the last time I will mention it: Stop playing this game like a SP game, in your strategy you antagonize: The OE (Crimea is kinda important for them), Austria (they want Bohemia) and Russia (they want to live) and since you dont stand a chance against all of them you need to make compromises.

Iwanov clearly does not know how to set aside the SP behavior when stepping into MP.
 
Jul 15, 2007
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He sometimes logs in as Chronicler.

And you just made your 1000 post, congratulations, you won ticket to nowhere, in idiots land.

Iwanov clearly does not know how to set aside the SP behavior when stepping into MP.

Well I know how, but I say what poland needs for glory.

Also you gone this thread too much offtopic by trying to win a discussion with me, which is quite annoying, as you seem to try being more stubborn than me, which is impossible, because i am allways right XD.

If you want to end this discussion, do it right now, or if not, just make a new thread.

Because i am to tired to read your annyoing post that try to show me as loser who can't do anything and know nothing, which is just silly, and should be recognized as trolling,

The former argument, that say I log in as chrionicler, is just an example of it - no rational argument just depreciating an oponent, trying to say he is just "Troll, and nuts". Typical wrongwing type of discussion, when i bring an argument, instead of replying it, you just say "You have bad hair" or something simmiliar.

This is mostly to ywhtptgtfo (this nick is more wrong than Chrionicler - at least the former means something - how you feel now? XD - ok no more answering with your own weapon). Just man, use some arguments instead of treating people like they are idiots.





But, as we should speak about france, IMHO the fact that brittany is allied to burgundy, does not help france, to build up.
 

Evie HJ

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I think when you come right down to it, this summarizes France:

France, when formed, is extremely powerful. However, France's ability to form seems to rest in large part on whether or not it is a lucky nation - Lucky (or human) France will very often form and become a near-unstoppable juggernaught.Without that modifier, France will very often disintegrate, and not form at all.

Does that appear to represent that most everyone tend to experience?
 

ywhtptgtfo

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And you just made your 1000 post, congratulations, you won ticket to nowhere, in idiots land.
Is that the name of a theme park in your country? Thanks, I'll prefer Prague if I plan to go on a vacation in the Eastern Bloc.

The former argument, that say I log in as chrionicler, is just an example of it - no rational argument just depreciating an oponent, trying to say he is just "Troll, and nuts".
Not a nice thing to say about Chronicler.

France, when formed, is extremely powerful. However, France's ability to form seems to rest in large part on whether or not it is a lucky nation - Lucky (or human) France will very often form and become a near-unstoppable juggernaught.Without that modifier, France will very often disintegrate, and not form at all.
As said before, it's not like France's the only big country that doesn't do well without lucky nation. Castile/Spain often gets raped in mid/late game if it ever gets into a war with a land power. Austria also tends to be on a permanent quest of reconquering Tirol and Styria. And enough has already been said about England/GBR.
 

Duke of Britain

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@OP :
Play a mod like DAO and/or use historical lucky nations.
Sadly France will continue like this, most times it is thanks to the stubborn English AI who ends up causing a lot of problems for it early-game.
 
Jul 15, 2007
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I think when you come right down to it, this summarizes France:

France, when formed, is extremely powerful. However, France's ability to form seems to rest in large part on whether or not it is a lucky nation - Lucky (or human) France will very often form and become a near-unstoppable juggernaught.Without that modifier, France will very often disintegrate, and not form at all.

Does that appear to represent that most everyone tend to experience?

Mostly yes.
 

DisgruntledLemming

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What are you talking about? I mean, is there an issue with France being an OPM? :p

But yeah, I think France could do with some buffing. At least let them keep all their lands connected, (I think the AI's too stupid to ask for military access from vassals...)
 

safferli

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Please get back to the thread topic, and don't call other posters names. Be nice to each other!
 

safferli

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Me thinks subjects should automatically give military access to their seniors...vassals or PUs


I don't think they'll refuse if you ask for it. But you'll have to ask first :)
 

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yes i agree, france is overnerfed, even for me that i play with lucky nations on.

Overall i would say as far as game balance goes:

pretty good: Spain, Portugal, England, Sweden

overpowered/overperforming: Austria, Bohemia, Burgundy, Milan

underpowered/underperforming: Muscowy, Ottomans, Poland, Lithuania, France, Denmark, Venice, Brandeburg.

I understand why Austria is overpowered, because that is probably the only way it can do something close to the role it had historically which involved lots of luck and strategic alliances. But Burgundy is annoying especially because the Netherlands never form because of her... Bohemia and Milan are horrible.

Also, some missions are really questionable: Austria has missions giving cores in northern italy right away, something that never happened in the timeframe. Spain should get them, instead of the mission on Africa.
 
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