France over nerfed?

[unmerged(80402)]

Didn't this kind of diplomacy give a player Poland an early partition?

Well, only if russian player, is very good. And Alfonso, who played novgorod, was not realy playing well. Also it would need quite good austrian player too(austria do not have bigger army than poland - at least not bigger enough to feel safe with poland warning it. Actualy allowing austria to take croatia, is kind of dumb, as it means strenghtening it.
Also, ottomans have much things to do, and if you won't manage to screw them up, they will propably agree on status quo. And if you succed in taking down ottomans, you are pretty much won (aspecialy with PU on bohemia, and propably hungary). Austria would not dare to fight a poland who owns bohemia and hungary and army that keeps lithuania not insulting them(around 35K troops).

Also, remember that russia is just weak compared to poland lithuania early. Not like i mean guaranteeing russian minors atb - you would have not enough diplomats. But if russian player is novgorod, he propably do NOT conquer any of russian minors too fast. Muscowy player could do so, but if player is muscowy you just ally/guarantee novgorod.

No early polish partition is possible with good polish player. Who would be so powerfull to make a patrition? It would need all its neighbours to attack it (Austria, Bohemia, Teutons, Brandenburg, russia etc). Very unlikely.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Actualy allowing austria to take croatia, is kind of dumb, as it means strenghtening it.

But it's not dumb for player Austria to let player Poland eat Bohemia.

 

[pilis]

Indeed, always remember that for the first session or so england and castille combined can still f*** over france and after that austria usually is consolidated. Iwanow, you should also know that you cant dismantle castille. At all. You can nibble away its provinces but honestly, thats expanding into mostly piss poor land with bad tradegoods.

Its a 50-50 chance that England+Castille will win a war against France during the first session.

Normally France almost always win a war like that in MP.

 

[ANO1453]

The answer to whether France is over nerfed or not is:
Lucky nations on or off?

 

[pilis]

Well, only if russian player, is very good. And Alfonso, who played novgorod, was not realy playing well. Also it would need quite good austrian player too(austria do not have bigger army than poland - at least not bigger enough to feel safe with poland warning it. Actualy allowing austria to take croatia, is kind of dumb, as it means strenghtening it.
Also, ottomans have much things to do, and if you won't manage to screw them up, they will propably agree on status quo. And if you succed in taking down ottomans, you are pretty much won (aspecialy with PU on bohemia, and propably hungary). Austria would not dare to fight a poland who owns bohemia and hungary and army that keeps lithuania not insulting them(around 35K troops).

Also, remember that russia is just weak compared to poland lithuania early. Not like i mean guaranteeing russian minors atb - you would have not enough diplomats. But if russian player is novgorod, he propably do NOT conquer any of russian minors too fast. Muscowy player could do so, but if player is muscowy you just ally/guarantee novgorod.

No early polish partition is possible with good polish player. Who would be so powerfull to make a patrition? It would need all its neighbours to attack it (Austria, Bohemia, Teutons, Brandenburg, russia etc). Very unlikely.

You really think that Ottoman would sit still?

MP is all about keeping all neighbors weak and help the weaker power.

Poland is one of the weakest major in any mp settings with even player skills.

 

[pilis]

You should also take Burgundy in account when dealing with France..

If Burgundy is Ai its not a problem.

If Burgundy is a player they are defeated before anyone can come to help them.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

The answer to whether France is over nerfed or not is:
Lucky nations on or off?

On

 

[PiriReis]

If Burgundy is Ai its not a problem.

If Burgundy is a player they are defeated before anyone can come to help them.

It might be true, in my latest MP game I have seen France having a big problem with Burgundy, France is powerful when its united but at start (1399 with all those French minors) not so much.

 

[ANO1453]

On

Why the sad face?

 

[pilis]

It might be true but in my latest MP game I have seen the other way around, France is powerful when its united but at start (1399 with all those French minors) not so much.

France have got nerfered but still the strongest nation around, you need to do some diplo nowdays.

In the good old days before DW, France could defeat the combine power of Castile/England/Burgundy/Milan/Austria/Poland during the first session.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

France have got nerfered but still the strongest nation around, you need to do some diplo nowdays.

In the good old days before DW, France could defeat the combine power of Castile/England/Burgundy/Milan/Austria/Poland during the first session.

If France is so overpowered, why not ban it in MP?

 

[stnikolauswagne]

If Burgundy is Ai its not a problem.

If Burgundy is a player they are defeated before anyone can come to help them.

I dont think you can say it like that. If we go by the following scenario: Castille and England attack France on Day 1 or 2, then AI burgundy might stay out. But should the players actually be able to conceal their intentions of attacking France (happened in a somewhat recent game) and wait until France attacks burgundy (which brings in Bohemia if France did not join the HRE beforehand which it probably wont) and then strike France has 3 very potent foes to deal with (England in the North, Castille in the South and the HRE in the west). I would say with equal skill levels on all three sides France would probably lose.

However, I wont really argue about all that, my point basically was: Iwanow can be taken down by Castille and England when playing France. If you put someone on the level of say Pewt, Elcyion or Nostra there its a whole different matter, but those players also know about the basics of diplomacy so its kind of a moot point.

If France is so overpowered, why not ban it in MP?

France is strong but also an important factor in the Balance of power. Remove France from the equation and you end up with a monster-austria. This can be seen here:
http://www.europa3.ru/cgi-bin/mpsta...XII&league=int&season=comp-2012&yearsave=1480
What happened is that France was played by a bad player, antagonized me (Spain) and forced me into a deffensive alliance with Austria that was played by another decent player. The whole game after that revolved around nobody stepping on any toes to not provoke getting steamrolled by Austria and Spain. I actually spent the last sessions throwing around ca. 10k ducats to fund random wars since fighting them myself would have been unfair.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

France is strong but also an important factor in the Balance of power. Remove France from the equation and you end up with a monster-austria. This can be seen here:
http://www.europa3.ru/cgi-bin/mpsta...XII&league=int&season=comp-2012&yearsave=1480
What happened is that France was played by a bad player, antagonized me (Spain) and forced me into a deffensive alliance with Austria that was played by another decent player. The whole game after that revolved around nobody stepping on any toes to not provoke getting steamrolled by Austria and Spain. I actually spent the last sessions throwing around ca. 10k ducats to fund random wars since fighting them myself would have been unfair.

You next goal would be to destroy the Austrian hegemony by allying France, although it seems Austria is outnumbering the combined Franco-Spanish troops (but whats with the mass infantry?).

I don't really understand the player England. Church attendance duty and national bank?

 

[sprites]

France was severly nerfed with HTTT , boosted a bit in DW , but England got boosted too , and other powers.

 

[pilis]

I dont think you can say it like that. If we go by the following scenario: Castille and England attack France on Day 1 or 2, then AI burgundy might stay out. But should the players actually be able to conceal their intentions of attacking France (happened in a somewhat recent game) and wait until France attacks burgundy (which brings in Bohemia if France did not join the HRE beforehand which it probably wont) and then strike France has 3 very potent foes to deal with (England in the North, Castille in the South and the HRE in the west). I would say with equal skill levels on all three sides France would probably lose.

France should always conquer the minors before the move on burgundy anyway (except if human burgundy), and that means a big differences.

However, I wont really argue about all that, my point basically was: Iwanow can be taken down by Castille and England when playing France. If you put someone on the level of say Pewt, Elcyion or Nostra there its a whole different matter, but those players also know about the basics of diplomacy so its kind of a moot point.

Last time Elcy tried that with England i made him go bankcrupt.


But in normal case France should try to do diplo with either of Castile/England/Milan and then its np to do what ever you want.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

Well, I won't argue with you about all that, since you are obviously the more veteran and knowlegedable player here, so I will retract my statement to the bare minimum, which I would think we can both agree on:

Antagonizing everyone around you as France is bad and disregarding diplo alltogether to bully everyone around you into submission can and probably will end badly if you are not overshadowing your neighbours tremendously in skill. Also a combination of England and Castille can be dangerous, especially if the players are more competent than you.

 

[midget_roxx]

France was severly nerfed with HTTT , boosted a bit in DW , but England got boosted too , and other powers.

England got a nerf as well 95/100 they would form GB by 1500s then take random bits of land all over the place. Now i see them breaking up 50% of the time

 

[unmerged(80402)]

But it's not dumb for player Austria to let player Poland eat Bohemia.

Well, if you do it quick enough austria might not see it before it is too late(you can just dow it in 3 months, unless austria will guarantee it(but if he do as i sad - you can guarantee bavaria, to annoy and cripple him). Also, if it means peace with poland it is not so dumb - bcs. when poland reaches LT 10, you might be in trouble cause of raging polish cavalry, destroying your troops like butter. and LT 10 is like 50 years ingame...

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Well, if you do it quick enough austria might not see it before it is too late(you can just dow it in 3 months, unless austria will guarantee it(but if he do as i sad - you can guarantee bavaria, to annoy and cripple him). Also, if it means peace with poland it is not so dumb - bcs. when poland reaches LT 10, you might be in trouble cause of raging polish cavalry, destroying your troops like butter. and LT 10 is like 50 years ingame...

There's so much problem with what you've just said. I'll leave it to the MP veterans to comment on this.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

There's so much problem with what you've just said. I'll leave it to the MP veterans to comment on this.

And so will I, since much of my arguments are based on the empirical evidence of like 6 Polands who where mostly played by omnicidal maniacs (no offence) I will have to wait for ysomeone who actually saw a decent to clarify things. I seem to remeber that Gots once did a strong PolRussia, but I also remember Pewt commenting that even then it was weaker than a regular Russia.