France over nerfed?

[ywhtptgtfo]

Well as i sad, biggest poland problem is GH. Bohemia is not much of a threat, nor any of rest of neighbours. In IN, poland when inherited Lithuania it pretty much owned the western europe, sometimes eating also bohemia, or even austria. Bohemia can only expand in hungary without attacking poland, unless it expand thru PU's. Poland can just expand anywhere (TO, hungary, HRE, Russia, balkans, and even GH after inheriting lithuania).

Sure... there are always exceptional cases like Cornwall taking over all of England, but we are talking about what happens most of the time. Have people seen a large A.I. Poland/Lithuania? Probably quite often (I have seen that several times). Have people seen A.I. Poland/Lithuania eating up the main HRE? I don't think that occurs often. Have you checked Bohemia's force limits and manpower at 1399? With some minting, it's just going to steamroll Poland + Lithuania by itself if that's what it wanted.

Also, a smart TGH would probably not want to accept tribute that early... considering that Lithuania and Poland have some decent provinces to take. If you want to say Poland can be a country if controlled by an A.I. that's smarter, then well, what's to say other countries wouldn't get even more benefits from that? A smart Bohemia would probably just DoW with Austria to eat some Slavic provinces.

Anyhow... had anyone ever complained about a huge unbeatable West Slavic country?

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Sure... there are always exceptional cases like Cornwall taking over all of England, but we are talking about what happens most of the time. Have people seen a large A.I. Poland/Lithuania? Probably quite often (I have seen that several times). Have people seen A.I. Poland/Lithuania eating up the main HRE? I don't think that occurs often. Have you checked Bohemia's force limits and manpower at 1399? With some minting, it's just going to steamroll Poland + Lithuania by itself if that's what it wanted.

Also, a smart TGH would probably not want to accept tribute that early... considering that Lithuania and Poland have some decent provinces to take. If you want to say Poland can be a country if controlled by an A.I. that's smarter, then well, what's to say other countries wouldn't get even more benefits from that? A smart Bohemia would probably just DoW with Austria to eat some Slavic provinces.

Anyhow... had anyone ever complained about a huge unbeatable West Slavic country?

Well, i say about what would happen if not the hordes. In IN poland half of the time(in my games), was in fact quite eastern europe france. But for a good player there is no unbeatable country(except another player country XD).

And i don't realy get, what would poland get from continuation of war with golden horde. Unless it is MP, and you want to kill off turkey, by allowing GH to flow into bulgaria(along with calling crushade on them, and inviting venice to blockade them entirely).

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Well, i say about what would happen if not the hordes. In IN poland half of the time(in my games), was in fact quite eastern europe france. But for a good player there is no unbeatable country(except another player country XD).

I've never played IN and most of us are playing DW. Poland often gets ripped in half and completely disappears from the map 200 years before the First Partition. End of story.

And i don't realy get, what would poland get from continuation of war with golden horde. Unless it is MP, and you want to kill off turkey, by allowing GH to flow into bulgaria(along with calling crushade on them, and inviting venice to blockade them entirely).

And I don't get why TGH would want to leave Poland and Lithuania alone or why Bohemia would just sit with its super land force limit and manpower, wait for Poland to inherit Lithuania and annex Teutonic Order, and not do anything useful.

I suppose in DW, a player Poland can destroy an A.I. Bohemia/Austria, which is of course great evidence to show that Poland is stronger than either of them.

 

[unmerged(171188)]

When I got DW, I expected the days of France dominating all of my games were over. Sure, I play with Lucky Nations on, but in my most recent game France conquered all of Castile (minus two provinces) and Aragon. Before 1500. They can be pretty terrifying when they want to be.

 

[BrotherM]

IMO France is overnerfed. I played 4 campaign in DW and in every case France turned after no more than 100 years into sth close to the OPM. In addition it became a protestant nation everytime. The problem is that France is usually conquered by Burgundy with little help from England, Castille/Spain and french minors. For me, it is a common sight to see a this area dominated by Burgundy and populated by minor states like Toulose, Provence, Avignon and Holland/Netherlands.

Well, Burgundy doesnt differ much from France, it is a very smiliar country, with similiar culture, which propably does what would have be done by France AI. Nevertheless, I miss this pretty blue blob

 

[unmerged(80402)]

I've never played IN and most of us are playing DW. Poland often gets ripped in half and completely disappears from the map 200 years before the First Partition. End of story.

And I don't get why TGH would want to leave Poland and Lithuania alone or why Bohemia would just sit with its super land force limit and manpower, wait for Poland to inherit Lithuania and annex Teutonic Order, and not do anything useful.

I suppose in DW, a player Poland can destroy an A.I. Bohemia/Austria, which is of course great evidence to show that Poland is stronger than either of them.

Well actualy i sad, i was close to defeat Austrian player. I did not managed to do it cause i suck(in pvp fighting) XD. But the fact i could do it, was because i did build my power quite well.

The fact poland loses with AI austria or bohemia, is not, or at least not only tech(actualy they tend to keep up with tech). Their problem is that they ussualy get border with golden horde and lose their pu with lithuania at the same time, so they or get eaten by gh, or pay tribute which kills their economy, and make them weaker than silesia. No wonder they get beating from bohemia.

IMO France is overnerfed. I played 4 campaign in DW and in every case France turned after no more than 100 years into sth close to the OPM. In addition it became a protestant nation everytime. The problem is that France is usually conquered by Burgundy with little help from England, Castille/Spain and french minors. For me, it is a common sight to see a this area dominated by Burgundy and populated by minor states like Toulose, Provence, Avignon and Holland/Netherlands.

Well, Burgundy doesnt differ much from France, it is a very smiliar country, with similiar culture, which propably does what would have be done by France AI. Nevertheless, I miss this pretty blue blob

Well i agree, but not allways. Sometimes they beat burgundy, and kill off all enemies. But it's rare. Yet actualy france lost mostly due to the GREAT lose on the battle of azincourt(which crippled them greatly). Otherwise, the french would not lose so the english. Actualy if they would win this battle, the french could invade england. Or at least cripple them greatly, and take all their land in france.

 

[Evie HJ]

Mind, France eventually won that war anyway (the Hundred Years War, that is), and did take all the British lands in France except one tiny bit up north. So winning Agincourt was not exactly necessary for that. It just delayed the French victory a few years.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Mind, France eventually won that war anyway (the Hundred Years War, that is), and did take all the British lands in France except one tiny bit up north. So winning Agincourt was not exactly necessary for that. It just delayed the French victory a few years.

Well it reminds me Commonwealth-Swedish war called "Deluge". Swedish just could not hold their hands on poland, and so couldn't the english hold france.

Reason was, it was too big for them.

But if not Joan D'arc(mind you, saint of catholic church), the french could not do anything, so we could say it was caused by god intervention. You need to remember that not only english wanted to keep france in their grip, but also the burgundians.

 

[Evie HJ]

If the only thing France needed to reverse the whole course of the war was a peasant girl giving just enough of a morale boost to get the french army to put up a genuine fight at Orleans (and win, therefore setting the stage for French morale to keep rising), the British were screwed from the get-go. (I won't get into speculating about "divine intervention". The idea that God meddled to influence human history one way or another is unproven and unprovable, and therefore, useless to discussion)

Which they were, because they overextended themselves. Because of how devastating Agincourt was, they attempted to gobble up more of france than they could crew, and choked on the meal.

Which would actually make Agincourt into an unmitigated long-term strategic disaster (as it paved the way for the overwhelming French victory in the overall Hundred Years War, and the British losing everything that wasn't Calais), for all that it was a brilliant win in a tactical and short-term sense.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Well, remember the burgundians were there still. And they were allied to english. Actualy french were quite screwed, and the fact they won, was because they were lead by great leader, which was Joan D'arc. She was only captured cause of treason if you follow her history. If you say that she was mere peasant, then how it is possible without god intervention, that she became the LEADER of french army, and won all those battles she fought?

 

[springel]

Well, remember the burgundians were there still. And they were allied to english. Actualy french were quite screwed, and the fact they won, was because they were lead by great leader, which was Joan D'arc. She was only captured cause of treason if you follow her history. If you say that she was mere peasant, then how it is possible without god intervention, that she became the LEADER of french army, and won all those battles she fought?

You should read up on the placebo effect.

When it can cure sickness, it can certainly win battles.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

You should read up on the placebo effect.

When it can cure sickness, it can certainly win battles.

Well i doubt placebo effect can out of nothing, make peasant a general.

 

[Evie HJ]

Joan of Arc only provided a morale boost.

The actual war-winning command ability and generalship was by and large the french officers serving under her.

Joan single-handedly winning the war is more in the nature of a historical myth than anything else.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Joan of Arc only provided a morale boost.

The actual war-winning command ability and generalship was by and large the french officers serving under her.

Joan single-handedly winning the war is more in the nature of a historical myth than anything else.

Good general take good officers. But even with good officers, bad general, won't win the battle.

EDIT: See battle of Azincourt, i don't think this was lack of morale, or exceptionaly bad officers. Just lack of strong leadership, and good general.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Good general take good officers. But even with good officers, bad general, won't win the battle.

EDIT: See battle of Azincourt, i don't think this was lack of morale, or exceptionaly bad officers. Just lack of strong leadership, and good general.

I am of the opinion that Joan of Arc is a myth/figurehead. However, I agree that strong leadership makes an enormous difference. Just look at the Peninsular campaign with Sir Arthur Wellesley, Napoleonic Wars with Napoleon, and Seven Years War with Frederick II.

Well actualy i sad, i was close to defeat Austrian player. I did not managed to do it cause i suck(in pvp fighting) XD. But the fact i could do it, was because i did build my power quite well.

The fact poland loses with AI austria or bohemia, is not, or at least not only tech(actualy they tend to keep up with tech). Their problem is that they ussualy get border with golden horde and lose their pu with lithuania at the same time, so they or get eaten by gh, or pay tribute which kills their economy, and make them weaker than silesia. No wonder they get beating from bohemia.

I played D&T where all non-Western tech groups got huge boosts (i.e. no tech slowing and no hordes) and Bohemia still rampaged all over Poland and Lithuania like walking on tofu. Have you even checked Bohemia's force limits and manpower? Bohemia's like the Prussia of EU3 that walks all over Eastern Europe however it likes.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

Well actualy i sad, i was close to defeat Austrian player. I did not managed to do it cause i suck(in pvp fighting) XD. But the fact i could do it, was because i did build my power quite well.

If by "close to defeat" mean "lost all my armies in the first week of the war and was blatantly outnumbered even before" then yes. I saw the war. The fact that Lama did not walk all over you was because he did not take the war seriously and did not play to the best of his ability. I was there and there was never any doubt that you would die. Your landtech "advantage" came from your Advisor, while Austria had a bad Techspeed simply because he was at war for the whole session. And no, you did not build your power quite well. You effectively pissed off all of your neighbours without the strength to match. You claimed all the saxon lands (Hansas land), are in a quasi deathmatch with Russia anyway, pissed off Austria and vassalized Walachia (OE Land). How exactly did you plan on going from there? Noone had an interest in seing you live....

The fact poland loses with AI austria or bohemia, is not, or at least not only tech(actualy they tend to keep up with tech). Their problem is that they ussualy get border with golden horde and lose their pu with lithuania at the same time, so they or get eaten by gh, or pay tribute which kills their economy, and make them weaker than silesia. No wonder they get beating from bohemia.

Did you not see the Picture y....gtfo [seriously, you have to tell me the reasoning behind this name someday] posted? That poland had much "richer" Lands than it would have if it had only taken the TO and Lithuania and still got decimated, simply because they are eastern tech. Its incredible how much of a difference that tech makes, believe me. Yes, more often than not Poland dies within the first 20 years, but even if they thrive they wont become a superpower, its a simple fact and even your nationalism wont change that.

To the topic of Jean: Not to get into a big discussion with you about faith (I heard you where a zealous christian and I myself am some sort of Atheist/whatever), but a French victory seems plausible without any direct divine intervention. Yes France was pretty down on its luck, but I am quite sure that England itself was not in that peachy a situation, IIRC the nobility was not that happy to spend all their money on a decade long war overseas and to hold onto probably not all that friendly land for a long time is always hard (see Spanish Netherlands).

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

If by "close to defeat" mean "lost all my armies in the first week of the war and was blatantly outnumbered even before" then yes. I saw the war. The fact that Lama did not walk all over you was because he did not take the war seriously and did not play to the best of his ability. I was there and there was never any doubt that you would die. Your landtech "advantage" came from your Advisor, while Austria had a bad Techspeed simply because he was at war for the whole session. And no, you did not build your power quite well. You effectively pissed off all of your neighbours without the strength to match. You claimed all the saxon lands (Hansas land), are in a quasi deathmatch with Russia anyway, pissed off Austria and vassalized Walachia (OE Land). How exactly did you plan on going from there? Noone had an interest in seing you live....

Seems like there is another BB parameter in MP and Ivanov got that invisible MP version of "Despicable Scum" modifier. Out of curiosity, how did that game turn out? Who was the leading country?

That poland had much "richer" Lands than it would have if it had only taken the TO and Lithuania and still got decimated

Not to mention, a HRE Bohemia of 1/3 of the size of that Poland would probably be deemed a suitable final boss for almost any player empire. But in the hands of an Eastern tech country, it's just a massive piece of tofu.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

I am of the opinion that Joan of Arc is a myth/figurehead. However, I agree that strong leadership makes an enormous difference. Just look at the Peninsular campaign with Sir Arthur Wellesley, Napoleonic Wars with Napoleon, and Seven Years War with Frederick II.

I played D&T where all non-Western tech groups got huge boosts (i.e. no tech slowing and no hordes) and Bohemia still rampaged all over Poland and Lithuania like walking on tofu. Have you even checked Bohemia's force limits and manpower? Bohemia's like the Prussia of EU3 that walks all over Eastern Europe however it likes.

Well, bohemia starting army = 20k. Polish plus lithuanian army = ~40k. Bohemia have forcelimit of around 200k only if it is HRE. If it is not, bohemia got forcelimit of 20-30k?

Bohemia AI makes like around 37k troops when it is HRE.

Poland got forcelimit of 20k atb. If we add lithuania 30k it is 50k troops.

If you see bohemia steamrolling over poland-lithuania, it is only because poland got smashed by someone or bohemia being very succesfull in battles. The later game is too random to be sure, but if poland inherit lithuania, i think bohemia won't steamroll over it, unless poland get attacked by all its neighbour and it's mother(100k forcelimit, with money to finance it is pretty easy to get from this).

If by "close to defeat" mean "lost all my armies in the first week of the war and was blatantly outnumbered even before" then yes. I saw the war. The fact that Lama did not walk all over you was because he did not take the war seriously and did not play to the best of his ability. I was there and there was never any doubt that you would die. Your landtech "advantage" came from your Advisor, while Austria had a bad Techspeed simply because he was at war for the whole session. And no, you did not build your power quite well. You effectively pissed off all of your neighbours without the strength to match. You claimed all the saxon lands (Hansas land), are in a quasi deathmatch with Russia anyway, pissed off Austria and vassalized Walachia (OE Land). How exactly did you plan on going from there? Noone had an interest in seing you live...

Actualy few things. Don't explain so stiupidly by "because your advisor". I got the advisor, but i also, made much of vassal income. And you forget the fact i did created this advisor from my land tradition. Also, i PU'ed hungary, vassalized TO, and only saw to vassalize others later. And i did not pissed off anyone but Lama. Novgorod just dowed me, despite i wanted to give smolensk to him(and i sad it to him - even gave it to him - despite his treachery). And hansa... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Hansa did nothing. Realy, actualy it only lived cause austria protected it. Otherwise i would kill it's economy, and take all his money.

Only neighbour that i slightly senslesly pissed was ottomans, but then, it was after he pissed ME off by taking budjak from me(and i did not recognized his strength before i met his army). Before that i wanted to make him my ally.

SO it was rather like i was surrounded by enemies from start, and no way of making them friends.

And austria did only managed to win the war, because i was backstabbed by ottoman player. And at the end, i did not lose so much(And i made my AIM, which was taking silesia).

And remember that after i lost the war, i was still the one with better land tech. Not like i am like the novgorod player, who screwed himself two times much worse(First got killed by golden horde, second by ME and my puppets)

Did you not see the Picture y....gtfo [seriously, you have to tell me the reasoning behind this name someday] posted? That poland had much "richer" Lands than it would have if it had only taken the TO and Lithuania and still got decimated, simply because they are eastern tech. Its incredible how much of a difference that tech makes, believe me. Yes, more often than not Poland dies within the first 20 years, but even if they thrive they wont become a superpower, its a simple fact and even your nationalism wont change that.

Well only way bohemia can decimate poland lithuania is if they will not lose imperial title, and it is not nationalism. It is just the same why muscowy never forms russia, reason for that poland allways get screwed. It is more like hordes rage.

So you just see what you want to see, not what actualy happens.

Like the fact poland that want to achieve something(like inheriting bohemia), just have no allies, unless france want to kill of austria. SO yeah, ally with novgorod, who will anyway stab you on the back, or ally with ottomans, who don't care, and even more, they want allways just to take budjak and take down golden horde. Or ally with hansa, which will never go against the emperor? Or maybe naval venice? Or milan (Yeah no milan in that game?)?

To the topic of Jean: Not to get into a big discussion with you about faith (I heard you where a zealous christian and I myself am some sort of Atheist/whatever), but a French victory seems plausible without any direct divine intervention. Yes France was pretty down on its luck, but I am quite sure that England itself was not in that peachy a situation, IIRC the nobility was not that happy to spend all their money on a decade long war overseas and to hold onto probably not all that friendly land for a long time is always hard (see Spanish Netherlands).

Well, truth. But it might just be so, that the burgundians would unite french land instead. And it would be much more plausible outcome, than what happened in reality. I mean i think that actualy there was no king for france, except the burgundian one. There was only dolphine, who could do nothing, and was doing nothing. The french army mostly capitulated, and the remainders of it, was something more like rebelion, than a real army. They got no real leader, no spirit, they were broken. If you would be there you would say : "This an end to france...". And as long as english king was wining, the nobility could see some gains from it. And even if the english would be thrown out, there were still burgundians. Actualy it war should an in splitting france between burgundy and england(then propably burgundy, would become the new france). But it did not what happened.

If you don't believe it, then sir, i doubt in your judgement about anything, because you only see what you want. You want to have everything in order, in little drawers of your mind. But it is not how universe work. Everytime when man think he know everything, when he discover the thing he thought will complete his knowgledge, he just realise how much he don't know. You need to be open minded. I am open minded - which mean, if vampire would stand before me, i would believe it. It is just i think it is unpropable. But nothing is impossible. And i assume i may be wrong, as i was wrong many times. many times i admitted it.

But back into the topic

I think best way france could be-unnerfed would be "Joan D'arc" event, simmiliar to highlanders event.
Like, when france does not own normandy, and paris is occupied, you get her as general(with good stats), and gain few regiments.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Well, bohemia starting army = 20k. Polish plus lithuanian army = ~40k. Bohemia have forcelimit of around 200k only if it is HRE. If it is not, bohemia got forcelimit of 20-30k?

Bohemia AI makes like around 37k troops when it is HRE.

Poland got forcelimit of 20k atb. If we add lithuania 30k it is 50k troops.

What? Am I the only one who had seen a small Bohemia with way over 100K troops? That's a rhetorical question.

And... Bohemia starts as Emperor. Period.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

What? Am I the only one who had seen a small Bohemia with way over 100K troops? That's a rhetorical question.

And... Bohemia starts as Emperor. Period.

Yes they do, but many times they lose their imperial status.

In my DW games, bohemia only get more than 40 if it conquers hungary. And hungary is getting bullied around by golden horde, otherwise, it would have easily more than enough forces, to defeat bohemia easily. Other than that, as they won't take more than 2 non cores in hre, they won't get more than 40k.

Still in my riga game, they got 100 k forces. But they did conquered few poland provinces(but poland without lithuanian PU, and paying tribute to GH, so already weak - which is easy even for teutonic order) and nearly whole hungary.

Actualy bohemia is surrounded by big countries, and hre countries. As hre countries give infamy, and makes states in empire angry, which takes away imperial status, if, not the fact the big neighbours getting killed by the horde, bohemia would just stay small, and sooner or later lose its imperial status, making it so weak, that the only fact keeping them alive would be they are in HRE.