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Eginhard 38

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From your latest report I see you're having a pretty good game. And because of it... I must admit I'm missing your whole point. You made different choices than the historical French leadership and managed to conquer a sizeable part of Germany. This looks normal, as historical choices led to disaster. Thus, why are you complaining about being forced to play ahistorical to get... ahistorical results?

Please note I'm not questioning your arguments, which are well grounded in facts for most. Except, maybe, regarding the German air force, which had a lot of well used tactical bombers, a fact compounded by the weakness of French AA defences in ground units. Also, a more comprehensive assessment of the German army should not lead to it being underestimated. We both know the 90,000 French dead of 1940 did not commit suicide: the not so weak Germans had something to do with this.

And please see no malice in this post, I'm just trying to understand why you blame so much the DH Team for nerfing France down while having a successful game with this country in the meantime.
 

Epaminondas

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Yeah, we're going to scrap a lot over this.
But it shouldn't be damned difficult for France to avoid conquest. You should have to screw up in epic fashion for it to happen so quickly.

France did screw up in an epic fashion and it did so for a complex of reasons that shouldn't be wished away by proposing that a sensible player would never have made such a blunder. They lay in limitations endemic to the French military, political, and social structures and to remove them would be to create a France that didn't exist in 1940. Taking your points in rough sequence I'd argue as follows.

It wasn't so much that France didn't want to defend Poland, but that French political and military doctrine held that the best way to assist Poland was to defeat Germany and that the best way to defeat Germany was through implementation of the Dyle Plan that you mention. I agree that this plan wasn't "defensive", but neither was it "offensive". It was, rather, "reactive" in that it proposed an offensive response to an assumed German advance through Belgium mandated by the defensive power of the Maginot fortifications. The appalling losses suffered during offensive operations in WWI hadn't extinguished the French will to attack, but they had created a social, political, and military environment which would not tolerate an "offensive posture" as that term is typically understood. The reason that France missed its "best chance for an offensive" wasn't a disinterest in Poland's fate (indeed France was strongly committed to maintaining Poland as a bulwark against communism) but that its military thinking was geared not to the punch but to the counterpunch - and the "holding back" of air power was "idiotic" only insofar as it was consistent with this stance.

At the more detailed level, I'd take issue with your observation that France was more competent in the use of armour than Germany on the basis of the historical outcome. Arras did demonstrate the potential of French armoured forces but there was only one Arras to stack up against the Meuse, Houx, Dinant, Montherme, Sedan, etcetera. French armour when skilfully employed did indeed give a good account of itself, but the manner in which it was in fact employed dovetails neatly into your assertion that "France more fully embraced Fuller's ideas of mobile warfare than Germany". I certainly think that you could make a case for this, but doing so would be to miss the critical point that the Germans didn't seek to implement Fuller's ideas but to employ instead Guderian's development of those ideas to include mobile artillery, extended radio communication, and specialised air support.

As to the modelling of "political ill-fitness" I can't agree that the minister choices provided serves to capture the scale of this problem. They're certainly a start, but the difficulties proceeded far beyond the constraints entailed there. Leaving Petain's observations aside entirely, the French political landscape from the end of the Great War through to the late 30's was marked by an increasingly acrimonious polarization of the positions adopted by the Centre-Right and the Socialist Left. This produced instances where the country was (admittedly briefly) essentially ungovernable and significantly longer periods during which industry was crippled by political-management-labour conflicts.

I'm assuming that it's these that the system is attempting to model through its 'ahistoric' IC allocation. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for France to be given her "historical" level of industry, but the task then becomes one of distinguishing between its industrial potential as represented by the periods of quietude on the industrial front and actual industrial output as affected by these conflicts. It's not a particularly elegant resolution of the challenge of distinguishing between production capacity and production output, but the strangling of production of military equipments in the later Thirties needs to be represented somehow.

Finally, I don't think there's anything wrong at all in allowing the player to benefit from hindsight, provided that the benefit doesn't demand the creation of a world that didn't exist. If you asked me to draw a line that separated the "real" world of allowable insights (e.g the submarine strategy you mention) and the "fanciful" one of invented opportunities I couldn't even come close to doing it. But I'd nonetheless maintain that like love you know it when you feel it - and in France I feel it. Hmmm, I suspect there's something deeply Freudian in that last bit.

By the way, congratulations on your last game report. I've played France a lot and haven't come close to achieving that kind of result.
 
Last edited:

GeneralUrist

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That's the issue though, isn't it? So much of OTL's German success was based on French leadership being pants-on-head retarded that is' basically impossible to properly emulate in the game, at least without making playing *as* France stupidly easy. Since in-game the French and German AI operate on (almost?) similar competences, Germany needs to be buffed hard for historical outcomes to consistently occur.
 

TheExecuter

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From your latest report I see you're having a pretty good game. And because of it... I must admit I'm missing your whole point. You made different choices than the historical French leadership and managed to conquer a sizeable part of Germany. This looks normal, as historical choices led to disaster. Thus, why are you complaining about being forced to play ahistorical to get... ahistorical results?

Please note I'm not questioning your arguments, which are well grounded in facts for most. Except, maybe, regarding the German air force, which had a lot of well used tactical bombers, a fact compounded by the weakness of French AA defences in ground units. Also, a more comprehensive assessment of the German army should not lead to it being underestimated. We both know the 90,000 French dead of 1940 did not commit suicide: the not so weak Germans had something to do with this.

And please see no malice in this post, I'm just trying to understand why you blame so much the DH Team for nerfing France down while having a successful game with this country in the meantime.

This is the third playthrough.

In order to have anything close to a historical army...I had to play on very easy settings...which gives France 40 IC.

Yeah, we're going to scrap a lot over this.


France did screw up in an epic fashion and it did so for a complex of reasons that shouldn't be wished away by proposing that a sensible player would never have made such a blunder. They lay in limitations endemic to the French military, political, and social structures and to remove them would be to create a France that didn't exist in 1940. Taking your points in rough sequence I'd argue as follows.

It wasn't so much that France didn't want to defend Poland, but that French political and military doctrine held that the best way to assist Poland was to defeat Germany and that the best way to defeat Germany was through implementation of the Dyle Plan that you mention. I agree that this plan wasn't "defensive", but neither was it "offensive". It was, rather, "reactive" in that it proposed an offensive response to an assumed German advance through Belgium mandated by the defensive power of the Maginot fortifications. The appalling losses suffered during offensive operations in WWI hadn't extinguished the French will to attack, but they had created a social, political, and military environment which would not tolerate an "offensive posture" as that term is typically understood. The reason that France missed its "best chance for an offensive" wasn't a disinterest in Poland's fate (indeed France was strongly committed to maintaining Poland as a bulwark against communism) but that its military thinking was geared not to the punch but to the counterpunch - and the "holding back" of air power was "idiotic" only insofar as it was consistent with this stance.

At the more detailed level, I'd take issue with your observation that France was more competent in the use of armour than Germany on the basis of the historical outcome. Arras did demonstrate the potential of French armoured forces but there was only one Arras to stack up against the Meuse, Houx, Dinant, Montherme, Sedan, etcetera. French armour when skilfully employed did indeed give a good account of itself, but the manner in which it was in fact employed dovetails neatly into your assertion that "France more fully embraced Fuller's ideas of mobile warfare than Germany". I certainly think that you could make a case for this, but doing so would be to miss the critical point that the Germans didn't seek to implement Fuller's ideas but to employ instead Guderian's development of those ideas to include mobile artillery, extended radio communication, and specialised air support.

As to the modelling of "political ill-fitness" I can't agree that the minister choices provided serves to capture the scale of this problem. They're certainly a start, but the difficulties proceeded far beyond the constraints entailed there. Leaving Petain's observations aside entirely, the French political landscape from the end of the Great War through to the late 30's was marked by an increasingly acrimonious polarization of the positions adopted by the Centre-Right and the Socialist Left. This produced instances where the country was (admittedly briefly) essentially ungovernable and significantly longer periods during which industry was crippled by political-management-labour conflicts.

I'm assuming that it's these that the system is attempting to model through its 'ahistoric' IC allocation. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for France to be given her "historical" level of industry, but the task then becomes one of distinguishing between its industrial potential as represented by the periods of quietude on the industrial front and actual industrial output as affected by these conflicts. It's not a particularly elegant resolution of the challenge of distinguishing between production capacity and production output, but the strangling of production of military equipments in the later Thirties needs to be represented somehow.

Finally, I don't think there's anything wrong at all in allowing the player to benefit from hindsight, provided that the benefit doesn't demand the creation of a world that didn't exist. If you asked me to draw a line that separated the "real" world of allowable insights (e.g the submarine strategy you mention) and the "fanciful" one of invented opportunities I couldn't even come close to doing it. But I'd nonetheless maintain that like love you know it when you feel it - and in France I feel it. Hmmm, I suspect there's something deeply Freudian in that last bit.

By the way, congratulations on your last game report. I've played France a lot and haven't come close to achieving that kind of result.

A good summary of our differences.

A) The Dyle plan isn't the plan for helping Poland though. In September of 1939, the Belgians are emphatically neutral and the French military knew the German army would be knocking out Poland.

Correspondence among the French high command reveals that France never intended to attack Germany seriously to defend Poland....which is shocking to any serious combat strategist.

French politicians did not want to guarantee Poland or go to war to defend it. The thinking was that defending the east as a viable strategy died with Czechoslovakia. Only public pressure forced them to 'defend' Poland, on pain of losing office.

So, when the war came...the French leadership declined to do any active fighting in a war they didn't want. Thus throwing away the initiative and resulting in the phoney war.

B) French military thinking was certainly different than Germany...and much of German and later Allied success is obscured by thw volumes of propaganda surrounding the methods of fighting. My only point here is really to point out that Grand Battle Plan should be tweaked a bit to less resemble 1916 thought and more closely resemble 1930s thought. It's a minor quibble and abandoning it for Firepower doctrine has made it feel mostly right. My forces are slow and a bit unwieldy...but will hit hard if I coordinate well. I can punch a hole in the line, but exploitation is tough. Defence is based on delay and firepower.

C) Political issues are well modeled by the combination of ministers to waste IC and resources and consumer goods...and the many dissent increasing events. 1934 is almost entirely dedicated to dissent reduction and no meaningful progress can be made with the military...as it should be. The French problems with their industry are easily modeled with dissent.

That's the issue though, isn't it? So much of OTL's German success was based on French leadership being pants-on-head retarded that is' basically impossible to properly emulate in the game, at least without making playing *as* France stupidly easy. Since in-game the French and German AI operate on (almost?) similar competences, Germany needs to be buffed hard for historical outcomes to consistently occur.

Only when France is played by the AI though...

The AI ive seen so far isn't very competent.
 

TheExecuter

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January 1940.

The offensive to Wilhelmshaven succeeded, surprisingly...and several garrison divisions were destroyed. Our forces followed up by crossing the Weser and taking Bremen...destroying more divisions.

The back and forth continues in the south. Our mountain corps is retreating to Innsbruck again...while our southern crops are attacking east out of Munich.

In the center, a backhand blow at Erfurt succeeds...and the resulting fallout results in both Magdeburg and Hannover falling to our forces. We will exploit until the Germans recover enough to stop us.

German losses are over 1 million men...while French losses have topped 500k.

Still no manpower issues, and reinforcements for us will be coming in the spring (April, I think).

Italy has stayed out so far...but their threat holds 25 divisions in the south.
 

TheExecuter

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Italy normally doesn't DOW unless Paris falls, however if they're at war with greece there is the possibility that the UK will bring greece into the entente which will make you at war with italy.

Good to know.

I don't think adjusting my force allocation is wise at this point. I don't understand strategic redeployment well enough to rely on it in a pinch.

Can I not redploy forces if my troops are not in controlled (not merely occupied) territory?

Or do I need to wait for the change mission delay to wear off before I can use strategic deployment?
 

GeneralUrist

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Or do I need to wait for the change mission delay to wear off before I can use strategic deployment?
By "mission change delay" you mean that brief period after ending a battle where a corps can't start another or split/merge? If so, you actually don't need to wait for that to wear off before using Strategic Redeployment.

A corps can strategically redeploy regardless if it is on an owned province, occupied-by-you provinces, or an ally's provinces. The primary rule is that a corps can redeply to any province with an uninterrupted traversible land connection form the start province to destination provinces. ('Traversible' means that a unit could walk the route if you moved normally instead of redeploying.)

The time your unit will arrive is the time shown in the "mission parameter" box that opens when you CTRL+right click a province and select strategic redeployment.

KEEP IN MIND: When your corps reaches its destination it will start with very low ORG, so redeploy a province or two behind the front line, not right on it. (I hope you have at some reserve divisions on the border with Italy.)

"Logistics" technologies increase your "strategic redeployment efficient", but I don't know if that reduces the time to move from point A to B, increases their starting ORG, or something else.
 

TheExecuter

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Hmm.

But strategic redployment has only been available as a mission option for me with garrisons. I'll have to try to find out what I'm doing wrong in the manual.
 

TheExecuter

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That IS weird. What buttons exactly are you pressing when you try to access Strategic Redeployment?

The mission selection under the strength and org in the corps selection menu.

I was going to do some more detailed investigation during this mornings play through but forgot.

Up to March, 1940. Our 1921 cavalry has finally upgraded to 1935 motorized, with Somua S35 tanks. Our central offensive crushes resistance in Leipzig... Magdeburg...and then our cavalry dashes forward and seizes Berlin!

Northern offensive seizes Hamburg, but is having a hard time pushing further towards Kiel or the Baltic. In the south, we don't have enough troops to hold the line everywhere...so offensives are constant, and maneuvering continues. We solidly hold Innsbruck, Munich, and are attacking Plzen. The Germans are rotating south to make an offensive through southern Bavaria.

I need more reiforcements. :)

On the other hand, I think we have moved into secure victory mode. I don't see Germany recovering from this position...as my deployed tech is equivalent to what the Germans can put out...and my divisions with arty and aa brigade attachments are strong enough to fight while outnumbered.

What are the victory conditions for defeating Germany before a Russian DOW?

Should we give Britain anything for their complete lack of help to us?
 

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Italy normally doesn't DOW unless Paris falls, however if they're at war with greece there is the possibility that the UK will bring greece into the entente which will make you at war with italy.
It shouldn't - trying to conquer Greece was an attempt to one-up Germany. If Germany is failing, Italy stays out, tends to her own affairs, and eventually rolls back the Germanophile reforms of '38 and maybe tries to snatch Austria when the Reich is evidently defeated.
 

TheExecuter

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April, 1940...and we hear reports that Adolf Hitler is dead. A suicide?

Head of the Navy Karl Donitz has taken control of the government. The German army fights on, however. Peace seems a long way off.

The French offensive North out of Hamburg finally succeeds and the German army is cut off and trapped in Denmark. We do not have the strength to defeat these forces and will hold them until supply disruption weakens them.

Two massive German offensives are launched. One to relieve the trapped troops in Denmark. It succeeds in reaching Rostock before it's exposed southern flank is exploited and crushed. A French offensive towards the Oder has begun...but insufficient forces exist here to firmly hold any gains. The second German massive offensive was successful in pushing back French progress in Austria and restoring contact with German forces in the Alps. French forces have stabilized the line (helped by the Germans pulling back to reinforce the north).

The German airforce finally emerged in concentrated force to cover these German assaults. Our fighters have been heavily punished. However, German tactical bombing has been of negligible impact to the campaign.

We have Germany on the ropes...but lack the strength to land a killer blow. The British army remains at home...while Frenchmen by the thousands bleed and die for the civilization of Europe.

How long before Germany gives in?

What will the Soviets do now that the west is exhausting themselves?
 

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October 1940.

Germany surrenders after being pushed into Poland and her armies decimated by attritional warfare.

French troops compel the last holdouts to surrender in Konigsberg and Copenhagen.

The Hungarians also surrendered, having entered the war just in time to be rolled over by Renault G1s.

We managed to build a single brigade of Char B1 bis...but the war ended before we could use them.

I have liberated Denmark, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and the Allied Occupation Zone. (Not sure if that was smarted than the Federal Republic of Germany...but I was feeling vindictive.)

Now, I have to clean up the war against Finland...and then deal with Japan...who has gone to war with the allies and the USA.

Here's hoping the Soviets don't want to get involved with Europe.

Also, turns out I could have milcontrolled the UK.
 

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October 1940.

Germany surrenders after being pushed into Poland and her armies decimated by attritional warfare.

French troops compel the last holdouts to surrender in Konigsberg and Copenhagen.

The Hungarians also surrendered, having entered the war just in time to be rolled over by Renault G1s.

We managed to build a single brigade of Char B1 bis...but the war ended before we could use them.

I have liberated Denmark, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and the Allied Occupation Zone. (Not sure if that was smarted than the Federal Republic of Germany...but I was feeling vindictive.)

Now, I have to clean up the war against Finland...and then deal with Japan...who has gone to war with the allies and the USA.

Here's hoping the Soviets don't want to get involved with Europe.

Also, turns out I could have milcontrolled the UK.
This was great. Any plan into making it an AAR? Would love to see the role of France in a world where Germany was stomped by France and spared Europe four more years of total war.

Maybe the Soviet Union is only waiting the appropiate moment to attack...
 

TheExecuter

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I'm debating it.

Finland has now surrendered. We have IDd the need for marine divisions to make amphibious assaults, so they've been added to the build queue.

My modern navy is out in the Pacific, defending Indochina...and I am trying to see if it makes any sense to send an army out there. Most of Europe is defenseless yet and the Bear is freakishly strong. My roughly 100 divisions can't defend it all alone...can I spare anything for the east?

The tier V cruiser Algerie and all but one ofy modern destroyers got sunk by a Japanese battleship group off Hanoi. My battleships get revenge by catching the Kaga in bad weather off Hong Kong and sending her to the bottom.

My subs are busy sinking Japanese convoys off the Philippines.

Do I retool and expand my industry? 123 base might not be sufficient...
 

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I'm debating it.

Finland has now surrendered. We have IDd the need for marine divisions to make amphibious assaults, so they've been added to the build queue.

My modern navy is out in the Pacific, defending Indochina...and I am trying to see if it makes any sense to send an army out there. Most of Europe is defenseless yet and the Bear is freakishly strong. My roughly 100 divisions can't defend it all alone...can I spare anything for the east?

The tier V cruiser Algerie and all but one ofy modern destroyers got sunk by a Japanese battleship group off Hanoi. My battleships get revenge by catching the Kaga in bad weather off Hong Kong and sending her to the bottom.

My subs are busy sinking Japanese convoys off the Philippines.

Do I retool and expand my industry? 123 base might not be sufficient...
Are you planning to declare war on the Soviet Union? I'd advise to start building some IC until 1944 and after the defeat of Japan, then you can strike them with the British and maybe some FDR troops (if you release it).

Also a strong navy is recommendable since you'll be able to make amphibious assalts more easily (and maybe grab Leningrad)