Big fish eat small fish
Predictable the top ten countries will have huge armies compared to the rest.Hit them hard, and early, before they become a shark.
France is broken. AI imbalance?
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Big fish eat small fish
Predictable the top ten countries will have huge armies compared to the rest.Hit them hard, and early, before they become a shark.
Something I've noticed in my current game as Savoy, and past games as England and Spain, all with Historical Lucky Nations on:
As Savoy, I'm allied with Castille and Austria, so I can see their armies. Austria hasn't asked me to join the war, so I've just been spectating. Shortly after Austria inherited Burgundy, France wardec'd on an HRE OPM. Austria brought in many HRE OPMs and France brought its vassals. The French alliance travels around in 2 or 3 doomstacks. These are composed of armies from 5 different AI's moving in perfect harmony with one another. Meanwhile, Austria has split its army into stacks of anywhere from 1-10 regiments. None of the Austrian allies stick together. They wonder around aimlessly. on several occasions I saw 3 Austrian armies of 10 regiments each moving around. One would get engaged by a French allied army and the other 2 Austrian stacks would just wonder off, though if they had merged they would have crushed the French.
I've seen this in the reverse as well in my other games. i.e. France getting trounced by a smaller but better organized Burgundy and/or Spain. It's almost like at the beginning of the game, the lucky nations aren't being assigned the best AI, but that it is being randomized. Though they may get great leaders and stat bonuses, a retarded AI can't compete. I don't think any particular country is screwed up by default, I just think there is something wrong with the AI assignments to countries.
As Savoy, I'm allied with Castille and Austria, so I can see their armies. Austria hasn't asked me to join the war, so I've just been spectating. Shortly after Austria inherited Burgundy, France wardec'd on an HRE OPM. Austria brought in many HRE OPMs and France brought its vassals. The French alliance travels around in 2 or 3 doomstacks. These are composed of armies from 5 different AI's moving in perfect harmony with one another. Meanwhile, Austria has split its army into stacks of anywhere from 1-10 regiments. None of the Austrian allies stick together. They wonder around aimlessly. on several occasions I saw 3 Austrian armies of 10 regiments each moving around. One would get engaged by a French allied army and the other 2 Austrian stacks would just wonder off, though if they had merged they would have crushed the French.
I've seen this in the reverse as well in my other games. i.e. France getting trounced by a smaller but better organized Burgundy and/or Spain. It's almost like at the beginning of the game, the lucky nations aren't being assigned the best AI, but that it is being randomized. Though they may get great leaders and stat bonuses, a retarded AI can't compete. I don't think any particular country is screwed up by default, I just think there is something wrong with the AI assignments to countries.
I'm playing a game as Portugal, and am up to 1618. France had take a couple of provinces in Spain. After the truce, Spain declared war on France to take back Aragon. France was also at war with Britain at the time, and also Austria (and me as well). Rather than focusing on Spain, the Spanish actually sent their army to take Naples. They took a couple of provinces, got a separate peace with Naples, and won that part of the war. But despite the fact that we had a much superior Navy (combined) than France, and the fact that the French were fighting on multiple fronts, Spain never sent their army back to Spain to regain their provinces. Not one single Spanish regiment in Spain during the war, except for maybe the first few months.
That war ended when France completely took over one of Spain's ally's in Africa (I forget which, but it doesn't really matter). Spain settled for peace without trying to take back Aragon, which was the war goal, and they left their entire nation undefended. Most of France's army was actually Africa, and what was in Europe was busy fighting Austria, Savoy, and some other minors.
That war ended when France completely took over one of Spain's ally's in Africa (I forget which, but it doesn't really matter). Spain settled for peace without trying to take back Aragon, which was the war goal, and they left their entire nation undefended. Most of France's army was actually Africa, and what was in Europe was busy fighting Austria, Savoy, and some other minors.
One thing I've seen about France: it's ridiculously strong, but at the same time has no depth to its game. Probably the most absurd combination of bonuses and ideas and any human players should completely destroy the enemy with them. However, if France gets a little unlucky, it's probably going down hard, and a competent human player can do so without too much difficulty. The first key is patience. Let France wear itself down, even if it takes a few wars. If they're fighting Spain, England, Austria, Burgundy et al, France can eventually be beaten. Conserve your soldiers, gang up on any forces which enter your turf, and send them running a few times. Surprisingly, Paradox didn't actually give France an infinite manpower limit even though it seems like it. If Austria is the HRE (and there's another story to dealing with them), they can probably trade man-for-man and win.
What your goal should be is to siege down enough of France to force them to release vassals, preferably near your border. If you're Catholic, you can easily get them to marry/ally/vassal and then France will be in trouble. Their rich provinces and manpower are now YOUR rich provinces and manpower. Take some territory away from them and let the AI's grab a few provinces. France then becomes a relatively minor nuisance, as long as they stay out of my bloody American colonies.
What your goal should be is to siege down enough of France to force them to release vassals, preferably near your border. If you're Catholic, you can easily get them to marry/ally/vassal and then France will be in trouble. Their rich provinces and manpower are now YOUR rich provinces and manpower. Take some territory away from them and let the AI's grab a few provinces. France then becomes a relatively minor nuisance, as long as they stay out of my bloody American colonies.
Not sure I agree with the OP about broken, but it sure does make for some mid-game fun and/or frustration. France in my game is not just huge, it's also in a coalition against me -- with GB, Mali, Swahili, half of India, half of China, the remaining native tribes in the Americas, etc. Every once in a while a war is triggered and it's gotten to a point where, unless I get lucky, I have to sue for peace and release some minor nation. France fields 3 30K stacks, which would not be a problem were it not for GB with its Naval Ideas maxed hating me for "border friction" and therefore impossible to dislodge from the coalition. But, like I said, makes for a "fun" midgame.
The thing about getting a big alliance against France, is that all of france's armies are in one spot, while all of yours are spread out, and generally not very well coordinated.
If you want to win such a war (and I have, as tuscany), you need to work together. Specifically, as the player, you should stay close to your allies' armies as much as possible and join their battles when they get attacked. you can also attach your army to an ally's army, which they will use to smash one of France's armies. Repeat until the war is won.
Once the war is won, your primary objective with the peace deal is to break up France's power base. Force them to release as many large nations as you can. In the second war, make them revoke their claims on all the land you took, and force them to release more nations. Once you get to the third war, they should be basically neutered, so you can start to take land. You can also start to take land from any countries you made them release, or just vassalize them if you have the spare slots.
Another tactic would be to make them release a bunch of nations, but not revoke cores, until you're finally able to force-vassalize them. Then, start doing the war in reverse to release all their cores. France will return as a mighty nation, but now they do your bidding! It'll probably be a long while before you can annex them though.
If you want to win such a war (and I have, as tuscany), you need to work together. Specifically, as the player, you should stay close to your allies' armies as much as possible and join their battles when they get attacked. you can also attach your army to an ally's army, which they will use to smash one of France's armies. Repeat until the war is won.
Once the war is won, your primary objective with the peace deal is to break up France's power base. Force them to release as many large nations as you can. In the second war, make them revoke their claims on all the land you took, and force them to release more nations. Once you get to the third war, they should be basically neutered, so you can start to take land. You can also start to take land from any countries you made them release, or just vassalize them if you have the spare slots.
Another tactic would be to make them release a bunch of nations, but not revoke cores, until you're finally able to force-vassalize them. Then, start doing the war in reverse to release all their cores. France will return as a mighty nation, but now they do your bidding! It'll probably be a long while before you can annex them though.
Yeah, I'm playing as Ireland in Iron man mode right now. England has been destroyed (largely due to an historic alliance with France) But France somehow achieved a union with Scotland and is a huge terror to me right now. I'm wondering when it will be safe to challenge them? I formed a coalition against them that seems to be keeping them from taking more territory for now. (A few German and Italian powers are coalescing on the continent, Spain, Portugal and I are furiously blobbing in America) Since I don't feel the need to take them on in the Continent yet, Will it be worth it just to take away their colonial power and nab Scotland from them? The AI seems to be pretty bad at effectively invading Britain or the Ireland. (Usually only transports 9 or so at a time) Playing on Ironman though makes me scared to do it at the right time. This is still my first serious play through.
The AI for Coalitions Just Needs Work
France is not overpowered. It's clear from this thread that if they start blobbing they keep right on going because the Coalition of hostile powers that form are not able to act in a coordinated fashion.
Yet we know that the AI is capable of this because France's vassals do it routinely. I don't see why Paradox can't fix this problem easily by having all AI nations that join a coalition war coordinate their stacks and fight one big battle at a time instead of splitting up their forces into bite-sized pieces all the time.
If France is still winning, they should do what the Player would do ----> try and evade them, siege provinces and force them to chase, hit them where they ain't; sometimes stay on your own territory and force them to come to you with serious penalties.
Completing offensive ideas helps this of course since you get the powerful forced march which can be used to evade their Stack of Doom while hopefully seizing other objectives. At a minimum, keeping their ports blockaded will increase your war score steadily without your needing to fight risky large battles.
France is not overpowered. It's clear from this thread that if they start blobbing they keep right on going because the Coalition of hostile powers that form are not able to act in a coordinated fashion.
Yet we know that the AI is capable of this because France's vassals do it routinely. I don't see why Paradox can't fix this problem easily by having all AI nations that join a coalition war coordinate their stacks and fight one big battle at a time instead of splitting up their forces into bite-sized pieces all the time.
If France is still winning, they should do what the Player would do ----> try and evade them, siege provinces and force them to chase, hit them where they ain't; sometimes stay on your own territory and force them to come to you with serious penalties.
Completing offensive ideas helps this of course since you get the powerful forced march which can be used to evade their Stack of Doom while hopefully seizing other objectives. At a minimum, keeping their ports blockaded will increase your war score steadily without your needing to fight risky large battles.
The biggest problem with France is when lucky nations are on. In my first ironman game as Castille, France was up against this coalition: Brittany, Savoy, Austria, Castille, Aragon, Portugal, England, Switzerland, Scotland. We had more troops than France, by 3x1, but we couldn't beat them because they had 2 land leaders with 6 fire/6 shock. England and Burgundy were also lucky nations, but still had their starting leaders, so we could not match the French leadership. In one particularly disasterous battle, we had 60k troops in a mountain region and the French attacked across a river with 40k troops, for a nice -4 attack modifier. They won, wiping out the armies of England, myself, Aragon, and Burgundy in a single battle. There's just no stopping France when lucky nations are on.
I see it happen all the time though, lesser nations will band together with stronger ones or band together in a big stack with other weak ones. The issue comes into another big nation, like an Austria, who thinks they can win a war just by themselves and end up getting picked off then the coalition stack gets picked off as well because if France is strong, France is STRONG. Big nations will not coordinate well but a bunch of lesser ones, presumably a Liege, a Lorraine, anything equivalent to France's vassals, will band together in a stack.
But France is hardly broken, half the time I see France end up like this:
I´ve seen many games where France gets kicked around by the AI, being split up and having a hard time getting on their feet again. Even helped kick them while being down as they had a few colonies I could grab off them
Personally, I don't think France is "broken" per se. I'm fine when France is a major European power and is able to defeat everyone of his many enemies in a 1vs1 situation. But I do think that there are some things that definitely need to be changed/worked on.
First, France is to easily unified. French lands are rich and have a large base manpower, and when France unites his core lands, it becomes extremely strong. In general, that is no problem, but as it stands, France usually kicks everyones ass around 1500, when it has absorbed/conquered all of the French OPM's. That makes France ahistoricly strong. I'm fine when France is the dominant power in Europe Mid- to Lategame, but this shouldn't be the case this early. I would suggest to give all the French minors national traditions to protect them from early integration. Either give them the Hungarian/Berber tradition which gives +200% coring cost, or give them a tradition that slows down the integration process itself (I think this would be best idea).
My second concern are coalitions. Others have already pointed out how they are flawed (members of a coalition won't work together properly, they don't make use of their superior numbers, etc.) so I won't go into detail. Simply improve the coalition A.I. I think it got better in the latest patch, I still consider it "broken". One thing that has to be addressed is England/Great Britain. I have NEVER seen them take any action, even if they have provinces bordering France. They just sit in London with their 20k stack and wait. That is especially annoying when England is the war leader of the coalition because it gives a lot less warscore when a province is occupied by an ally of the war leader instead of the war leader itself.
The last problem with the whole matter is the lucky nations mechanic. The small boni to revolt risk, war exhaustion, leaders, etc. are fine, but lucky nations almost always get 6/6/6 rulers. Now that almost every actions in game uses monarch points, which are only generated by the monarch's stats, this makes France (and every other lucky nations) ridiculously powerful. France is rich and powerful, with a big and competent army, but giving them godlike rulers makes them better in almost any aspect of the game, most notably technology. France almost always unlocks techs as soon as they cost 999 MP or less and it has a shitload of ideas. Also, the fact that players can't ever be lucky completely unbalances the whole region. When France is neighbored by Spain, Austria, Burgundy and England, which are all lucky, they tend to be rather docile and even gets wiped out quite some times. But when one of this nations is player by a human player, France has a decisive advantage. Therefore I believe the true problem to be lucky nations.
These are the things that really need a rework, not France itself. The only thing about France that could(!) be changed is the rate of their moral/manpower recovery. France has vast armies, but even if you defeat them, after a few months they reappear with full manpower and moral. Though that is probably in line with history.
First, France is to easily unified. French lands are rich and have a large base manpower, and when France unites his core lands, it becomes extremely strong. In general, that is no problem, but as it stands, France usually kicks everyones ass around 1500, when it has absorbed/conquered all of the French OPM's. That makes France ahistoricly strong. I'm fine when France is the dominant power in Europe Mid- to Lategame, but this shouldn't be the case this early. I would suggest to give all the French minors national traditions to protect them from early integration. Either give them the Hungarian/Berber tradition which gives +200% coring cost, or give them a tradition that slows down the integration process itself (I think this would be best idea).
My second concern are coalitions. Others have already pointed out how they are flawed (members of a coalition won't work together properly, they don't make use of their superior numbers, etc.) so I won't go into detail. Simply improve the coalition A.I. I think it got better in the latest patch, I still consider it "broken". One thing that has to be addressed is England/Great Britain. I have NEVER seen them take any action, even if they have provinces bordering France. They just sit in London with their 20k stack and wait. That is especially annoying when England is the war leader of the coalition because it gives a lot less warscore when a province is occupied by an ally of the war leader instead of the war leader itself.
The last problem with the whole matter is the lucky nations mechanic. The small boni to revolt risk, war exhaustion, leaders, etc. are fine, but lucky nations almost always get 6/6/6 rulers. Now that almost every actions in game uses monarch points, which are only generated by the monarch's stats, this makes France (and every other lucky nations) ridiculously powerful. France is rich and powerful, with a big and competent army, but giving them godlike rulers makes them better in almost any aspect of the game, most notably technology. France almost always unlocks techs as soon as they cost 999 MP or less and it has a shitload of ideas. Also, the fact that players can't ever be lucky completely unbalances the whole region. When France is neighbored by Spain, Austria, Burgundy and England, which are all lucky, they tend to be rather docile and even gets wiped out quite some times. But when one of this nations is player by a human player, France has a decisive advantage. Therefore I believe the true problem to be lucky nations.
These are the things that really need a rework, not France itself. The only thing about France that could(!) be changed is the rate of their moral/manpower recovery. France has vast armies, but even if you defeat them, after a few months they reappear with full manpower and moral. Though that is probably in line with history.
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The purpose of Lucky Nations is to give the player worthwhile opponents. Having a player in charge is better than Lucky, unless the player has neither skill nor desire to become skilled.
Vauban's idea is way too op, also, even when the French WE goes up to 8 (which is already too difficult even with all their ports blockaded) the revolt risk in a province with a non-accepted culture (Savoyard) has something like 0.9 revolt risk..... and france killed my whole army (second largest in the world after theirs) with an army of 37k men...
I eat my morning cereals with French tears.
View attachment 89863
The story behind this is pretty amusing. A coalition formed against Sweden and soon war broke out with France as the coalition leader. 100 000 French soldiers marched up north, what horrors they faced up there I do not know, but I suspect a combination of attrition and heavy Swedish resistance. Once the French army got past the Danish islands the Swedish navy sailed forth an blocked the path. I believe the war ended with a white peace, but more importantly, of the 100 000 soldiers who entered the conflict only 30 000 came back. It was the perfect opportunity to strike, France had expanded into imperial lands and that was a mistake they would pay dearly for.
View attachment 89863
The story behind this is pretty amusing. A coalition formed against Sweden and soon war broke out with France as the coalition leader. 100 000 French soldiers marched up north, what horrors they faced up there I do not know, but I suspect a combination of attrition and heavy Swedish resistance. Once the French army got past the Danish islands the Swedish navy sailed forth an blocked the path. I believe the war ended with a white peace, but more importantly, of the 100 000 soldiers who entered the conflict only 30 000 came back. It was the perfect opportunity to strike, France had expanded into imperial lands and that was a mistake they would pay dearly for.
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I must disagree. While a player definitely knows how to handle economical and militaristic problem, the huge amount of MP that Lucky nations get is just absurd, especially when a nation like France, that already is powerful, gets this boni.
Just play with lucky nations off. Forget Ironman, forget achievements. If you think Lucky France is OP, then don't have Lucky France in your game...
I agree with one sentiment that crops up a lot. The AI is weird. France and its vassals seems to work well together army management wise. Why do other countries not do the same? The amount of times I've seen one ally nation sit a stack next to another and ignore each other while one gets annihilated is bizzare. So I've taken to spending the early to mid parts of wars flying around the map with my doom stacks supporting theirs. That usually evens the battle or turns the tide.
The AI reallys need to be improved. Not so much on the part of France, but everyone else around. Especially England.
I currently play Castille/Spain and witnessed how France swept away England from the continent right away. Soon enough a coalition was formed, I participated thrice. None of the coalition members managed to win even a single battle. Be it Burgundy, England or Austria. England didn't even manage have a mentionable fleet around. It always ended with me and France fighting out 1:1, no other faction mattered. At all. Allied units as Portugal's, would rather die 2 provinces away then seek protection among my waiting armies.
But how annoyed I might have been by the useless opposition for France, now that I've broken them by releasing Champagne and Guyenne, I miss dear old mighty France.
I currently play Castille/Spain and witnessed how France swept away England from the continent right away. Soon enough a coalition was formed, I participated thrice. None of the coalition members managed to win even a single battle. Be it Burgundy, England or Austria. England didn't even manage have a mentionable fleet around. It always ended with me and France fighting out 1:1, no other faction mattered. At all. Allied units as Portugal's, would rather die 2 provinces away then seek protection among my waiting armies.
But how annoyed I might have been by the useless opposition for France, now that I've broken them by releasing Champagne and Guyenne, I miss dear old mighty France.