France invades HRE [Strategy Talk]

[kmh42]

I don't like viceroyalties in general and Vice-kings in particular and I tell you why.

Spoiler

from
Comprehensive Community Issue List

• AI viceroys do not care about preserving patrilineal marriage for their sons or matrilineal marriage for their daughters
• AI emperors murder viceroys based on the "I would inherit a title" rule
• AI emperors will not grant multiple viceroyalties to a single duke
• AI emperors do not make a concerted effort to make their realm all-viceroy or all-feudal, resulting in a mix that lowers the opinion of feudal dukes.
• AI minor viceroys should consider the "Increase Council Power" faction to be high-priority until title revocation is under council control, because they know they are at risk of having their viceroyalties revoked. (Currently, rulers only consider it high-priority until war declarations are voted on.)
• AI emperors rarely revoke viceroyalties. They should consider revoking from faction member, especially in all-viceroy realms where there is no general penalty for re-granting the viceroyalty.
• AI emperors never retract vassals from kings.
  

After a Viceroys death all his wealth, wars, infamy, opinion mods, retinue
… goes to the top liege
Fixes:

• All things, except for the viceroy title, go to the primary heir instead of to the liege (including wealth, opinion modifiers, retinue, and infamy)

succession issues if and when the viceroy decides to rebel
Fixes:

• If a viceroy rebels, their succession is handled like normal vassals, unless for the viceroy title that goes to the liege

you're constantly annoyed with viceroys titles
...you have to reassign upon the viceroy's death
Fixes:

• There is at the death of a viceroy an event which allows the liege to choose to hand over the title directly to the heir or give it to someone else

Realm laws not sticking for viceroys
Fix:

• make them stick

And for the Vice-King part my main issue a bug where when his/her dukes rebel and the viceroy dies I have to sort out the rebellion. In this particular playthrough I gave out one Vice-King title and I regret is imminently. The Viceroy died and I had to fight a -60 warscore war right after I lost this one nomadic war. This was the reason for my own civil war and lead to the implosion to my realm. Yes I did many thing wrong in my realm management. I could have used viceroys better but when you have to give out 40 titles very half hour of play time it get really annoying and you stop thinking about every detail of the future viceroy. So I didn't think about who I give those titles. This lead after some decades to my down fall.
I already started the next run. This time without viceroys

 

[Shebaloso]

okay, i got your points. But i was talking solely about viceroys (as in king-level vassals). Literally 90% of those problems do not apply, given the fact that they concern AI problems with viceroyalties. But i do wonder how you will manage without viceroys. Besides the general stability and the "keep your vassals weak" thing, how are you going to handle the vassal limit?

 

[kmh42]

Literally 90% of those problems do not apply, given the fact that they concern AI problems with viceroyalties.

I my playthrough 50% of the issues i mentioned affected me.

But i do wonder how you will manage without viceroys. Besides the general stability and the "keep your vassals weak" thing, how are you going to handle the vassal limit?

That's the question! Before conclave I always used Vice-Kings, now with this annoying rebellion bug I wanted to try with Vice-Dukes. This didn't work out well either but mostly out of my own incompetence and inpatients. Maybe I try again with normal dukes and carefully keep an eye on them so they don't create kingdoms, or get a shitload of kids and make NAP with every one possible, or make as many vassal Republic and Price-Bishops as possible becasue they don't expand and get replaced with new dudes every now and then.

 

[Greybeard0815]

I really don't see the problem with Viceroyalties.
When I'm blobbing hard as Emperor I always keep everything up to Duke as hereditary vassals and then give the oldest Duke his De-jure Kingdom as Viceroyalty. If he dies the next oldest Duke gets it. This spreads claims to the Kingdom titles around, ensuring that after some time they'll be too busy with infighting rather than risk war with their liege.

Also has the added benefit that I can redraw the internal borders regularly. When the inevitable marriages between vassals connect duchies/counties from different Kingdoms mess things up the new Viceroy will occupy himself with regaining his De-jure lands rather than fight me.

Also the "Vassal transfer" opinion bonus is pretty strong and works well in conjunction with the new "opinion of predecessor" bonus, which keeps them somewhat loyal if exploited correctly.

ALSO ignoring Imperial Administration and just using the Kingdom Viceroyalties law is better imho because you don't get the opinion malus from the former.

Not to mention the usual ways of placating vassals, like tactical marriages or spamming invites for carousing on one guy until he becomes your friend.

If it is for achievements then why not use everything at your disposal?

Having Feudal Kings as vassal is the worst of the worst. Because only rebellions will allow you to reassign the title, while with Viceroys you just have to wait for them to die (or help them with that).

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Vice Kings care about patrilineal marriages. Vicedukes (and normal counts for that matter) do not care only for roughly the first two generations at the start of the game. Or basically whenever a new dynasty pops out.

Basically dynasties in the beginning of the game have no prestige and are willing to sacrifice land to get it. It's about the umpteenth time I have matrilineally married the heir to the Duchy of Aquitane in 769 start as the Lombard/Karling/Isauros dynasty.

If their dynasty is established with 15 or so members you'd need a crowbar and a war to pry land off male dynasty members, just like normal vassals.

I also don't understand about the "who you give titles to." Game pauses upon death of a viceroy. Also the vice king inherits their vassal vice duke titles upon the duke's death (as a viceroyalty no less,) saving you a ton of micromanagement.

The rest of those issues don't even really apply to you, as you are the liege.

 

[kmh42]

When I'm blobbing hard as Emperor I always keep everything up to Duke as hereditary vassals and then give the oldest Duke his De-jure Kingdom as Viceroyalty. If he dies the next oldest Duke gets it. This spreads claims to the Kingdom titles around, ensuring that after some time they'll be too busy with infighting rather than risk war with their liege.

Also has the added benefit that I can redraw the internal borders regularly. When the inevitable marriages between vassals connect duchies/counties from different Kingdoms mess things up the new Viceroy will occupy himself with regaining his De-jure lands rather than fight me.

I used to to this pre-conclave. I am the only one who is encounter this stupid rebellion bug with Vice-king??? It's just so annoying for me. And sometime when you have bad luck you inherent a -99% war and all you money and 100k army is not enough to defend against this. And for this playthrough I just wanted to try something different.

Also the "Vassal transfer" opinion bonus is pretty strong and works well in conjunction with the new "opinion of predecessor" bonus, which keeps them somewhat loyal if exploited correctly.

I had very few counts to transfer so I couldn't use this tactic much but I could it made better.

ALSO ignoring Imperial Administration and just using the Kingdom Viceroyalties law is better imho because you don't get the opinion malus from the former.

I needed IA badly because I had a abolished council. My VL was never over 32 but my demesne was 12!

Not to mention the usual ways of placating vassals, like tactical marriages or spamming invites for carousing on one guy until he becomes your friend.

I got sluggish in the end. I was so obsessed with conquering Mongolia that I miss many chances to placating vassals. I also was short on close family members quite a while.

If it is for achievements then why not use everything at your disposal?

Next time I will!

Vice Kings care about patrilineal marriages. Vicedukes (and normal counts for that matter) do not care only for roughly the first two generations at the start of the game. Or basically whenever a new dynasty pops out.

Basically dynasties in the beginning of the game have no prestige and are willing to sacrifice land to get it. It's about the umpteenth time I have matrilineally married the heir to the Duchy of Aquitane in 769 start as the Lombard/Karling/Isauros dynasty.

If their dynasty is established with 15 or so members you'd need a crowbar and a war to pry land off male dynasty members, just like normal vassals.

That is good from a human liege POV but bad for the mechanic, that's why it on the list of issues with AI and Viceroyalties.

I also don't understand about the "who you give titles to." Game pauses upon death of a viceroy. Also the vice king inherits their vassal vice duke titles upon the duke's death (as a viceroyalty no less,) saving you a ton of micromanagement.

The rest of those issues don't even really apply to you, as you are the liege.

I mostly play on my office PC at work (see low end PC in my Signature). I had so many Multi-Vice-Dukes, some with 7 titles, and I also give those titles old people. And they died all the fucking time and then I have to take roughly 5 min just to get thos titles away. Just do this 5 time while you fighting a global DP war with 200k troops involved in the steppes.

For me applied:

• AI viceroys do not care about preserving patrilineal marriage for their sons or matrilineal marriage for their daughters
• AI minor viceroys should consider the "Increase Council Power" faction to be high-priority until title revocation is under council control, because they know they are at risk of having their viceroyalties revoked. (Currently, rulers only consider it high-priority until war declarations are voted on.)
• After a Viceroys death all his wealth, wars, infamy, opinion mods, retinue goes to the top liege
• succession issues if and when the viceroy decides to rebel
• you're constantly annoyed with viceroys titles
• ...you have to reassign upon the viceroy's deathRealm laws not sticking for viceroys
• and this annoying bug I am constant whining about

Not all of this is bad but it affected me becasue of using viceroyaltys

 

[MichaelStakely]

I
After a Viceroys death all his wealth, wars, infamy, opinion mods, retinue goes to the top liege

The best solution is to find the oldest, richest person possible to hand off the Viceroyalty to.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

5 times, 10 times. It doesn't matter? The game is still paused when they die.

Giving it to old people is self inflicted torture quite honestly, albeit profitable. Regardless of how a young one acts, when they die all their vassals revert to you. Giving them back the title doesn't give them the accompanying vassals, effectively limiting them to the title's de jure land.

Again, with Vice Kings they can handle all those vice duchies for you and in exchange you only have to hand out say, three viceroyalties per king death (king and whatever vice duchies he personally holds.)

The AI not caring about patrilineal is not a viceroy thing. It's a dynasty thing. When a dynasty has zero prestige they'd happily matrilineal marry away their only claim to land. For example the Duke of Aquitane happily does this almost every Charlemagne start if you are an established dynasty (Karling, Lombard, Isauros. Hell even the "King" of Mercia)

Normal dukes don't consider title revokation a priority, and vice kings are not revoked for free, making the point moot should you use them. There is no necessity for this to be a high AI priority.

Hence why Vice Kings are useful. The inherited wars are almost never -99% by the time they die, also easily handled in short order as the revolt is only kingdom wide, much smaller than your empire. This is more than made up for the times where you inherit a petty war that you yourself would normally need to fight under a Defensive Pact. And if you make multiple kingdom sized viceroys (which will happen eventually,) they most definitely do declare war on neighbors for you.

Their opinion mods don't transfer over. I never inherit their tyranny modifiers or any others, really. That or I've never noticed, since I just plop the at most three viceroyalty titles that the dead king gave me. Whatever modifiers are there, if they're there at all, are then left to the new king to deal with.

Rather than trying to understand your resistance against vassal kings/viceroys, I don't understand your obsession with abolished council. War Council is an extremely mild council power, and with vice kings there's pretty much zero slippery slope as you can easily lock up 80% of your realm inside the council. Haven't had a revolt since the beginning, and only because I purposely encouraged the revolts in order to revoke as much land as possible for dynasty members. Frees your children to marry people that actually matter, like heiresses or claimants.

There is a foreign ruler malus, but only in the form of "desires the duchy/kingdom/empire of -----" or whatever is not your primary title. For example it would be HRE if you're holding Francia as your primary.

 

[kmh42]

First of all, calm down.

5 times, 10 times. It doesn't matter? The game is still paused when they die.

It mattered for me, because my effective play time consisted more of title management rather then conquering Mongolia. That's why I became sluggish in the end and this lead to my downfall. This is my personal problem and not one of the game of viceroys.

The AI not caring about patrilineal is not a viceroy thing. It's a dynasty thing. When a dynasty has zero prestige they'd happily matrilineal marry away their only claim to land. For example the Duke of Aquitane happily does this almost every Charlemagne start if you are an established dynasty (Karling, Lombard, Isauros. Hell even the "King" of Mercia)

oh OK. I will correct this in the Comprehensive Community Issue List

Normal dukes don't consider title revokation a priority, and vice kings are not revoked for free, making the point moot should you use them. There is no necessity for this to be a high AI priority.

Normal dukes don't live in the fear of constant title revocations, Vice-Dukes do! SO they should act like that. It's more of a immersive detail and no a huge thing.

Hence why Vice Kings are useful. The inherited wars are almost never -99% by the time they die, also easily handled in short order as the revolt is only kingdom wide, much smaller than your empire. This is more than made up for the times where you inherit a petty war that you yourself would normally need to fight under a Defensive Pact.

I think I never said this inherited wars a a real problem they are just annoying. In this particular playthrouh I gave away one Vive-King title and it came back in the worst moment back possible with an -66% rebellion. I just lost 2/3 of my army of attrition in the stepps, my money was depleted because of my retinues (They were fighting DP-Members on other fronts). All those little thing and more played together to my downfall.

And if you make multiple kingdom sized viceroys (which will happen eventually,) they most definitely do declare war on neighbors for you.

I was not interested in other territory other in the west of me.

Rather than trying to understand your resistance against vassal kings/viceroys, I don't understand your obsession with abolished council. War Council is an extremely mild council power, and with vice kings there's pretty much zero slippery slope as you can easily lock up 80% of your realm inside the council. Haven't had a revolt since the beginning, and only because I purposely encouraged the revolts in order to revoke as much land as possible for dynasty members. Frees your children to marry people that actually matter, like heiresses or claimants.

I know how to handle a council. My most games after conclave I played with full council authority and I had no problem to do what I want. I just wanted to try to make a huge Empire with a abolished council. I never did that before and I wanted to know if I can to that. And I have to say it was some what easy with an abolished council.

There is a foreign ruler malus, but only in the form of "desires the duchy/kingdom/empire of -----" or whatever is not your primary title. For example it would be HRE if you're holding Francia as your primary.

Francia was the only Empire title. I destroyed the HRE title and others because they were elective.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Don't fully edit that just yet though. What you said about viceroyal dukes not caring about succession has some merit. Vice dukes are more willing to do matrilineal marriages than normal dukes. It's only really noticeable if you have an established decent prestige dynasty at the start of the game.

Normal dukes may be willing to matrimarry the first in line heirs like the Duke of Aquitane for the first generation, while viceroys are willing to do so for ~ the second generation as well.

But after that generally all bets are off, I would need that crowbar.

I don't mind my games turning into a slog. in an ironman game and do ~15 years every 3 hours.

 

[kmh42]

In my second attempt I am much quicker. In less than 100 years I formed Francia and invades HRE successfully. Now I am going for Vice-kings because I didn't manage to go for Imperial Administration. I hope you are happy now Every thing fine so far! Conquert Poland, Hungary, Wallachia and Taurica.

 

[kmh42]

I request your expertise!
How can I conquer the steppes in the most efficient way? Last time I just rushed into it against a huge defensive pact. The enemy armies weren't the biggest problem. My biggest enemy was attrition in those tribal, nomadic winter lands.
This time I need to get rid of threat to focus my attention on the far east. I could give up my Andalusian realm and Jerusalem but this just gives me about 25 threat. Maybe I conquer Italy just to give it away piece by piece. NAP are not a real option becasue I don't have enough close family members. Any suggestions?

 

[kmh42]

I hate Vice-Kings! Every third Vice-Kings who dies gives me a war of any kind. The rebellions are not the problem, the external wars are! Because I can't get rid of my threat lvl without give up massive junks of land. I don't wanna start a world war for a one-county nomadic holy war.

 

[Shebaloso]

I hate Vice-Kings! Every third Vice-Kings who dies gives me a war of any kind. The rebellions are not the problem, the external wars are! Because I can't get rid of my threat lvl without give up massive junks of land. I don't wanna start a world war for a one-county nomadic holy war.

Dude, stop putting the blame on the viceroyalties for problems which come either from your lack of ability/knowledge/patience or from completely different stuff. Your viceroys are not attacking external enemies because they are viceroys, no. They are doing so because they are strong and able to do so. That became a problem since conclave, which removed crown authority and allowed vassals to declare war at will. For internal wars, we have Enforce Peace. For external wars, we don't have anything. Vicroyalties have nothing to do with that.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

? Those external wars are awesome. You never inherit defensive wars because enemies would have to declare on you (their liege) and not them. Offensively the Vice Kings almost never declare war externally unless they are sure to win.

Most importantly, those inherited wars have no pacts involved. pacts only trigger if you yourself started it.

 

[Zooboss]

I hate Vice-Kings! Every third Vice-Kings who dies gives me a war of any kind. The rebellions are not the problem, the external wars are! Because I can't get rid of my threat lvl without give up massive junks of land. I don't wanna start a world war for a one-county nomadic holy war.

Why not just white peace the external wars you don't want to win because of threat reasons?

 

[kmh42]

Dude, stop putting the blame on the viceroyalties for problems which come either from your lack of ability/knowledge/patience or from completely different stuff. Your viceroys are not attacking external enemies because they are viceroys, no. They are doing so because they are strong and able to do so. That became a problem since conclave, which removed crown authority and allowed vassals to declare war at will. For internal wars, we have Enforce Peace. For external wars, we don't have anything. Vicroyalties have nothing to do with that.

What lack of ability or knowledge? Lack of patience, Yes, I am guilty of that. I conquert the HRE, Poland, Hungary, the papacy, and other stuff in 80 years and now I am complete stuck with my goal to conquer the steppes. This is frustrating! My main problem is this specific bug which only occurs with viceroy's death and there is no workaround other then live with it or don't use vice-kings. And those external wars are another one a and I don't know how to counter that.

? Those external wars are awesome. You never inherit defensive wars because enemies would have to declare on you (their liege) and not them. Offensively the Vice Kings almost never declare war externally unless they are sure to win.

Most importantly, those inherited wars have no pacts involved. pacts only trigger if you yourself started it.

Those external wars blocking me losing threat without giving up territory.

Why not just white peace the external wars you don't want to win because of threat reasons?

This is the only option I have when I want to lower my threat.

Let's concentrate on my main goal, the steppes. I don't wanna go against an lvl 90 DP where I am not able to quickly siege down territory. The supply limit and the winter is killing my death stacks before I can kill the enemy and build forts everywhere. So my first step is to lower my threat. Giving up territory is not a preferable solution because the Mongols and the Aztecs will come sooner or later and I need every man to throw them back where are they came from. So I have to wait... and hope my vassals don't take to much land.

PS: crusades are no option either because of this
PS2: thx for still discussing with me

 

[francis_morin]

Swear fealty to the Holy Roman Emperor. Then, get elected to office by bribing/murdering your way in. After a while, you will be then able to change the Laws of the Realm to be inheritable rather than elected when it comes to successions. Meanwhile, you will be able to ignore the HRE when you are out conquering new lands, like Britannia, since they will be not joining any kind of coalition against you. Moreover, if anyone attack you, you will have the help of the rest of the realm.

Really, if you are not RPing, it is the most efficient way to go early on.

 

[kmh42]

Swear fealty to the Holy Roman Emperor. Then, get elected to office by bribing/murdering your way in. After a while, you will be then able to change the Laws of the Realm to be inheritable rather than elected when it comes to successions. Meanwhile, you will be able to ignore the HRE when you are out conquering new lands, like Britannia, since they will be not joining any kind of coalition against you. Moreover, if anyone attack you, you will have the help of the rest of the realm.

Really, if you are not RPing, it is the most efficient way to go early on.

Thx for your suggestion but the topic moved on in this thread. I already conquered the HRE with the invasion casus belli, which is the most superior method. I tried once to swear fealty but France is not de jure HRE an so no elector.

 

[joeBurn]

OMG I fucked it up. Because I did go for Vice-Duchies and againsed a huge DP. My 100k army was worth nothing when I tried to conquer nomadic land in the distant and cold areas of Cummania. My threat lvl was constant over 90% and because I had mostly just Vice-Duchkes which had land all over my realm I did want to give them independence. So I started a costly war with fights and front all over the place. Most of my glorious army died due to attrition in the steppes so losing the war was inevitable. This let to a money problems and then a rebbellion broke out. I lost the interest of this game because my realm got some what unmanageable.
Maybe I try the same playthrough again but without Viceroyalties and a better vassal management.

Perfect, dont stop playing now. That is best part of the game....I would really like if things like this would happen more often, even without huge mistakes like this.