France invades HRE [Strategy Talk]

[kmh42]

Backgroud
I am close to 100% achievements and decided to start as France in 1066 to achieve Survivor, Never Start a Land War in Asia, Pax Mongolica and Sword to Ploughshare. So I start out strong and my plan is to go West only.
Situation
It's 1152 AD, my France King Guichard is 34, a lvl 20 Diplomat and he has a weak claim on the HRE.
I own all of de jure France, Brittany, Aquitaine, most of the duchy Flanders, two counties of Navara and a little North Italian enclave surrounded by the HRE. De jure drift for d_brittany is 79 years and for the Aquitaine duchies 88 years. I have a very centralized realm (High Centralization and Abolished Council) with 6 multi-duke vassals. My 9 county demesne and NAP with the strongest vassals keep my realm nice a quiet. With Slightly Levy Focused Noble Obligations I can field approximately 28k troops maximum. This is enough to beat HRE. Pisa is a tributary of me so money is no problem ether.
Which Way to go
I have three ways in my mind to invade the HRE. The first one is to press my weak claim when the time comes. The problem here, I maybe never get the chance and I "just" get the HRE title.
The second one I much superior because it's a strong claim (I can press it when ever I want) and I get every county I siege the first Barony. But this take much time, money, preparations and another generation. I need to change the Investiture law (for this I need to wait to the next generation of ruler), install an anti-pope and get more Cardinals then the HRE.
Of course I can try to press my weak claim in this generation and when that don't workout I still can try the other way.
The third one is to create e_Francia, vassalize the pope and slowly eat up the HRE with duchy claims.
Questions

1. How should I invade the HRE?
2. What happens with the council laws when I become the Emperor? I have a abolished council and the HRE doesn't.
   
3. How to deal with the many new vassals? Create King-Tier titles and consolidate them, maybe hide the German and Italian vassals under a Franch King-Vassal? I honestly want to avoid King-Tier vassals.
   
4. Should I wait for de jure drift into France to prevent my vassal from creating King tier titles when I become the Emperor?

HRE Info
25k troops
21 vassals (So I will have 22 new ones)

PS: I hope the dynasty curse doesn't hit me. My first ruler, Philippe I. died with 30 a natural death (!sic) his son Philippe II. inherited with 11 and died with 37 years of severe stress, his son Leonard inherited with 14 and died with 34 after a period of illness succeed by Guichard with the age of 5!

 

[Shebaloso]

Well, if you already have a claim and actually can take the HRE head on, then the best way is the obvious way...just press the claim whenever you can. That does not stop you from pursuing a strong claim, but why you would wait for an invasion casus belli (what would be the point of sieging every barony if you would just hand them and the counties and duchies to new vassals? The penalty for different culture is already not that big of a deal at your tech levels, and you could always vassalize the pope later...) or even consider eating it duchy by duchy is curious at best...

As for your other questions:

2. You have only one set of council laws. If you are a king and conquer an empire-level title, your new council laws become those of the Empire (ex. you have abolished the council as king of france, but the current kaiser rules under full council authority. If you conquer the HRE, the new council laws would be the empire's existing ones, so you would rule under full council authority. This can become VERY problematic for you). If you conquer a title of the same level, your existing council laws should be carried over.

3. The duchies inside the HRE alone are enough to fill up your vassal limit even with Imperial Administration, so vassal kings are not an option. Yes, yours would be the best solution. Giving kingdom titles to your french vassals would be best, just be aware that you actually have to make them powerful enough to win against his german vassals when they revolt. This is a problem if you conquer the HRE by pressing the claim, but you can go around that by creating the kingdoms yourself, handing them as viceroyalties to your german vassals, vassalizing the pope, asking for duchy claims, establishing a powerbase for each of your future french vassal kings and only then handing them the titles.

4. Already answered. You will have have vassal kings anyway, so you might as well create the titles yourself and hand them to vassals of your liking. For those dukes you would rather stay your direct vassals, just make sure they are not powerful enough to create the kingdom themselves (make sure they control less than 51% of their de jure kingdom).

But none of this will matter anyway, as all of your heirs will die before they reach their 40s.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

1: Right after they fight big war, or are fighting a revolt.
2: You'd get their laws, I believe.
3: Kings are good.
4: Kings are good.

 

[Bjorn_Ginger]

So I start out strong and my plan is to go West only.

I suggest you amend your plans to attack HRE and attack Ireland and Britannia instead if you're supposed to follow your great plan on going west only.

 

[Greybeard0815]

Has the HRE something else than elective in your game? It's easy to get a weak claim, it's much harder to press it against realms that have elective, because those realms very very rarely have children or females ruling against whom weak claims can be pressed.

I would either swear fealty and usurp or vassalize the pope and either request invasion or claim everything.

 

[kmh42]

what would be the point of sieging every barony if you would just hand them and the counties and duchies to new vassals

The point is I can give it to new vassals (or old ones) and they like me then. I also can move my capital in a more central area.

The penalty for different culture is already not that big of a deal at your tech levels

There is this -20 Foreign Conqueror and ~8 Foreigner opinion modifier. This is not good!

2. You have only one set of council laws. If you are a king and conquer an empire-level title, your new council laws become those of the Empire (ex. you have abolished the council as king of france, but the current kaiser rules under full council authority. If you conquer the HRE, the new council laws would be the empire's existing ones, so you would rule under full council authority. This can become VERY problematic for you). If you conquer a title of the same level, your existing council laws should be carried over.

This is preventing me from pressing my claim as a King. When I become an Emperor before invading the council laws stay mine?

3. The duchies inside the HRE alone are enough to fill up your vassal limit even with Imperial Administration, so vassal kings are not an option. Yes, yours would be the best solution. Giving kingdom titles to your french vassals would be best, just be aware that you actually have to make them powerful enough to win against his german vassals when they revolt. This is a problem if you conquer the HRE by pressing the claim, but you can go around that by creating the kingdoms yourself, handing them as viceroyalties to your german vassals, vassalizing the pope, asking for duchy claims, establishing a powerbase for each of your future french vassal kings and only then handing them the titles.

When I conquer it as a King the vassal limit should skyrocket because of the Empire-Tier (+5) and the full council (+14). But this dose not please me. I wanna stay as much centralized as possible. I don't know if I am able to pass the viceroyalty law after the invasion. Besides that viceroyalty is a bad mechanic in my eyes. I will definitely avoid it.

4. Already answered. You will have have vassal kings anyway, so you might as well create the titles yourself and hand them to vassals of your liking. For those dukes you would rather stay your direct vassals, just make sure they are not powerful enough to create the kingdom themselves (make sure they control less than 51% of their de jure kingdom).

2: You'd get their laws, I believe.

3: Kings are good.
4: Kings are good.

Vassals Kings are bad. Why should I give my vassals a King-Tier title. It just makes them stronger and I don't want that. I know, when I blob into the west, at some point I need vassal kings but I want to live without them as long as possible.

I suggest you amend your plans to attack HRE and attack Ireland and Britannia instead if you're supposed to follow your great plan on going west only.

I see no reason to do that. I am strong enough to beat the HRE and I have not unlimited time. I need to reach Mongolia (and fight the Mongols) till the end-date.

Has the HRE something else than elective in your game? It's easy to get a weak claim, it's much harder to press it against realms that have elective, because those realms very very rarely have children or females ruling against whom weak claims can be pressed.
No, they are Elective. Another problem when Invading. With this curese on my family I am not able to hold the title one generation.
I would either swear fealty and usurp or vassalize the pope and either request invasion or claim everything.

But none of this will matter anyway, as all of your heirs will die before they reach their 40s.

I tend more to the third option. This why I can get a centralized imperial Empire without much hassle. With the title of the HRE I just get too much stupid vassals and succession and council laws.

 

[Shebaloso]

The point is I can give it to new vassals (or old ones) and they like me then. I also can move my capital in a more central area.

There is this -20 Foreign Conqueror and ~8 Foreigner opinion modifier. This is not good!

Vassals Kings are bad. Why should I give my vassals a King-Tier title. It just makes them stronger and I don't want that. I know, when I blob into the west, at some point I need vassal kings but I want to live without them as long as possible.




I tend more to the third option. This why I can get a centralized imperial Empire without much hassle. With the title of the HRE I just get too much stupid vassals and succession and council laws.

Yeah, i forgot about the foreigh conqueror penalty. But that is just another reason to create vassal-kings. I don't understand your resistance against them. Managing one foreign king is much more feasible than managing dozens of angry foreign dukes. And he will never be as strong as all his respective vassals combined. Having the king of italy in a faction is much less scary than having all the respective italian dukes. Sure, A vassal king mean less levy and less tax, but once you become emperor of whole western europe, that is surely not a problem

About the viceroyalties and laws. Yes, if you become Emperor of Francia your council laws will be carried over. And if you are not willing to have viceroys, it makes the process a lot more troubling. Anyway, the foreign penalty stuff can be dealt with accordingly, as long as your powerbase in france is solid. If you can thwart the eventual rebellions, press the claim, then go for an antipope. He will be able to give you claims on your most pesky vassals' titles.

Just to tell what i would do. I would press the claim, immediately create the kingdom of italy and hand it to an italian vassal (maybe even to your north italian exclave) and perhaps also the kingdom of burgundy if all the duchies in the region are controlled by different people. This way i would have enough peace to deal with the german dukes before they tried anything funny.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

The point is I can give it to new vassals (or old ones) and they like me then. I also can move my capital in a more central area.

There is this -20 Foreign Conqueror and ~8 Foreigner opinion modifier. This is not good!

This is preventing me from pressing my claim as a King. When I become an Emperor before invading the council laws stay mine?

When I conquer it as a King the vassal limit should skyrocket because of the Empire-Tier (+5) and the full council (+14). But this dose not please me. I wanna stay as much centralized as possible. I don't know if I am able to pass the viceroyalty law after the invasion. Besides that viceroyalty is a bad mechanic in my eyes. I will definitely avoid it.



Vassals Kings are bad. Why should I give my vassals a King-Tier title. It just makes them stronger and I don't want that. I know, when I blob into the west, at some point I need vassal kings but I want to live without them as long as possible.

I see no reason to do that. I am strong enough to beat the HRE and I have not unlimited time. I need to reach Mongolia (and fight the Mongols) till the end-date.




I tend more to the third option. This why I can get a centralized imperial Empire without much hassle. With the title of the HRE I just get too much stupid vassals and succession and council laws.

Actually, you're right.

Now King-Tier Viceroys.... they're different. I recommend that you get that law passed before you invade the HRE.

 

[kmh42]

Yeah, i forgot about the foreigh conqueror penalty. But that is just another reason to create vassal-kings. I don't understand your resistance against them. Managing one foreign king is much more feasible than managing dozens of angry foreign dukes. And he will never be as strong as all his respective vassals combined. Having the king of italy in a faction is much less scary than having all the respective italian dukes. Sure, A vassal king mean less levy and less tax, but once you become emperor of whole western europe, that is surely not a problem

Of course fewer Kings are easier to manage the two dozen of dickheads Dukes, but my goal is to have some multi-dukes. This way I have to deal with few ones but they are not as strong as Kings. My plan is to blob so big then never before, From France to Mongolia, so I have to manage my realm as good as possible and keep my vassals weak as possible.

About the viceroyalties and laws. Yes, if you become Emperor of Francia your council laws will be carried over. And if you are not willing to have viceroys, it makes the process a lot more troubling. Anyway, the foreign penalty stuff can be dealt with accordingly, as long as your powerbase in france is solid. If you can thwart the eventual rebellions, press the claim, then go for an antipope. He will be able to give you claims on your most pesky vassals' titles.

I think I go for e_Francis, imperial government, duchy viceroy's and vassal pope and then I invade the HRE

Just to tell what i would do. I would press the claim, immediately create the kingdom of italy and hand it to an italian vassal (maybe even to your north italian exclave) and perhaps also the kingdom of burgundy if all the duchies in the region are controlled by different people. This way i would have enough peace to deal with the german dukes before they tried anything funny.

That would definitely work. But I want to try better. When I get on the Kaiser's throne, I want keep expanding because time is limited. I don't want to waste decades with stupid Italian King who thing they have something to say in my realm. I know my strategy is also slow as hell but when I am imperial it will be much easier in the long run... I think.

Actually, you're right.

Now King-Tier Viceroys.... they're different. I recommend that you get that law passed before you invade the HRE.

I will do that. Empire->vassal pope->imperial government->invasion

 

[kmh42]

Guichard broke the family curse and died in the age 62 a natural death!
Now I am Guichard II. Emperor of Francia, the liege of the pope, I instituted the imperial goverment and non of my vassals is a King. I am going for the kill now. With 44k vs 22k troops thhis is going to be easy!

 

[kmh42]

YES! Look at this beauty!

And with imperial administration I am not even over my vassal limit.
Now I have to make a stable Empire out of this
THX for the help and discussion!

 

[kmh42]

There is NO -20 Foreign Conqueror opinion modifier!

 

[Shebaloso]

Have you turned on sunset invasion? having those aztecs invading your empire with hundreds of thousands that would certainly be a sight to behold

 

[MichaelStakely]

YES! Look at this beauty!
And with imperial administration I am not even over my vassal limit.
Now I have to make a stable Empire out of this
THX for the help and discussion!

Where's the Crusade for?

It'd be to your benefit for it to end as quickly as possible if only to cut down the amount of time until you can request a Crusade for one of the eastern states.

Persia or one of the Indian states would be a great forward base if you're aiming to conquer all of Mongolia though that's further south than your original intention of going due west.

 

[kmh42]

Have you turned on sunset invasion? having those aztecs invading your empire with hundreds of thousands that would certainly be a sight to behold

I play nearly always with the Aztecs. Mostly because I rarely play in Western or Central Europe. I don't fear them! I try do conquer Pomeranian, Poland and Hungary as quickly as possible and then I should be able to field enough troops to throw them back into the sea.

Where's the Crusade for?

It'd be to your benefit for it to end as quickly as possible if only to cut down the amount of time until you can request a Crusade for one of the eastern states.

Persia or one of the Indian states would be a great forward base if you're aiming to conquer all of Mongolia though that's further south than your original intention of going due west.

It's for Jerusalem. It changes the owner frequently. First one won england, then the Seljuk's conquered it back, after that the Fatimid's conquered one half from them, in another crusade I got the rest from the Seljuks but I was not able the hold it against a Shia jihad because they clearly oper powered me and my allies where useless because of there army movement.
I am currently more worried about my stability, with all these foreign Dukes who are upset because I destroyed the HRE title. When I have no catholic realm left in the East I will definitely use the crusades for my interests.
Persia is definitely one of the juiciest targets and when the time comes it will be mine

 

[Greybeard0815]

It's for Jerusalem. It changes the owner frequently. First one won england, then the Seljuk's conquered it back, after that the Fatimid's conquered one half from them, in another crusade I got the rest from the Seljuks but I was not able the hold it against a Shia jihad because they clearly oper powered me and my allies where useless because of there army movement.

Who holds the KoJ now? It would be smart to keep Jerusalem as forward base, especially for the two holy orders you can vassalize by decision which would become very handy when going for anything thats not Christian.

I am currently more worried about my stability, with all these foreign Dukes who are upset because I destroyed the HRE title. When I have no catholic realm left in the East I will definitely use the crusades for my interests.
Persia is definitely one of the juiciest targets and when the time comes it will be mine

Why not give the Kingdom of Germany to the oldest Duke that preferably also "likes" you most as Viceroyalty? Give him or one of his sons one of your daughters for a juicy NAP that also prevents him from joining factions and along with the opinion bonuses from granting a Viceroyalty and vassal transfer you'd have the most loyal vassal ever. Repeat when he dies.

 

[kmh42]

Who holds the KoJ now? It would be smart to keep Jerusalem as forward base, especially for the two holy orders you can vassalize by decision which would become very handy when going for anything thats not Christian.

Currently the Fatimid's control the KoJ. I am already the liege of the Hospitaler and Templer. The plan was to hold KoJ as a base but at what costs? The KoJ is surrounded by 3 power-horses, Seljuk's, Fatimid's and Byzantine. This realm would just be annoying because of constant uprisings and Jihads.

Why not give the Kingdom of Germany to the oldest Duke that preferably also "likes" you most as Viceroyalty? Give him or one of his sons one of your daughters for a juicy NAP that also prevents him from joining factions and along with the opinion bonuses from granting a Viceroyalty and vassal transfer you'd have the most loyal vassal ever. Repeat when he dies.

With the help of the pope I will "collect" some of the duchy-titles in my new lands and will give it away as vice-duchies and proceed as you say.

 

[kmh42]

Every think look fine right now. I did use Viceroys but only the duke one. I am still on abolished council. I am now preparing for the invasion of the ERE. Before I will do that I will abolish my viceroy system and install multi kings as my vassals to stay in my vassal limit.
PS: The Aztecs has landed in Scotland and Mauretania and doing nothing so far.

 

[kmh42]

OMG I fucked it up. Because I did go for Vice-Duchies and againsed a huge DP. My 100k army was worth nothing when I tried to conquer nomadic land in the distant and cold areas of Cummania. My threat lvl was constant over 90% and because I had mostly just Vice-Duchkes which had land all over my realm I did want to give them independence. So I started a costly war with fights and front all over the place. Most of my glorious army died due to attrition in the steppes so losing the war was inevitable. This let to a money problems and then a rebbellion broke out. I lost the interest of this game because my realm got some what unmanageable.
Maybe I try the same playthrough again but without Viceroyalties and a better vassal management.

 

[Shebaloso]

OMG I fucked it up. Because I did go for Vice-Duchies and againsed a huge DP. My 100k army was worth nothing when I tried to conquer nomadic land in the distant and cold areas of Cummania. My threat lvl was constant over 90% and because I had mostly just Vice-Duchkes which had land all over my realm I did want to give them independence. So I started a costly war with fights and front all over the place. Most of my glorious army died due to attrition in the steppes so losing the war was inevitable. This let to a money problems and then a rebbellion broke out. I lost the interest of this game because my realm got some what unmanageable.
Maybe I try the same playthrough again but without Viceroyalties and a better vassal management.

dude, i don't understand your resistance against vassal kings/viceroys. It was obvious you were going to have problems with stability. Just divide your kingdom into large viceroyalties (france and aquitaine, italy, hungary) Fewer direct vassals, fewer problems, easier management. But hey, don't lose interest. Those are the coolest games, when it doesn't follow your plans, and you actually have to work to make it.