France guarantees Yugo at start now, or bug?

[KubiG37]

TL;DR Talking about hypothetical guarantees, French guarantee is valid, not sure about Yugoslavia. Also Czechoslovakia could have a guarantee from Soviet Union as well (really), at least very early in game.

Czechoslovakia was one of the first nations to recognize Soviet Union and tried to maintain somewhat friendly relations, mostly to try to keep away fascist Germany, and revisionist Hungary, since French Influence in the region has been dropping for a while now.
But we 'failed' miserably, because in order to put some more diplomatic weight behind the alliance (as a small country) with USSR, we put an article in the treaty stating something along the lines 'but only if France agrees to go to war with Germany first'. And when Munich came, french abandoned us, and since USSR did not want to potentially face German agression alone, to save a single small country (also how would they cross Poland?), without France, they used this as an excuse to consider the treaty invalidated. RIP Czechoslovakia.

 

[Casko]

TL;DR Talking about hypothetical guarantees, French guarantee is valid, not sure about Yugoslavia. Also Czechoslovakia could have a guarantee from Soviet Union as well (really), at least very early in game.

I'd argue it makes more sense for Yugoslavia than for Czechs.

However in either case its clearly not been playtested properly. and by minimum there should be some time limit for the guarantees, that they run out eventually, or that they are removed when the popular front comes to power in France. As currently, as some people have been talking about, The Czechs are too bold to resist Germans currently, leading to ahistorically early WW2, which at worst case causes a civil war in France due to loss of stability and French commune joining the Axis.

Or into a second WW1 in Balkans between France and Yugoslavia vs Italy. which again, can lead to all kinds of wonky weirdness.

 

[CryingPanda]

Anyone knows if it is historically accurate? UK historically guaranteed Belgium and Portugal.

It went prior to the game start, originating in 1927.

The Treaty of Friendship between France and Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (aka Yugoalsiva, note Cryingpanda), signed on November 1, 1927 in Paris, which was originally concluded for five years, but it was extended on November 10, 1932 and December 2, 1937.

 

[Totally Not a Boomer]

i hope you guys know...historically Italy and Germany didnt go to war with yugoslavia until 1940, yet every italy player does it in 1936 or 37

 

[TheKillingJoke]

i hope you guys know...historically Italy and Germany didnt go to war with yugoslavia until 1940, yet every italy player does it in 1936 or 37

You do realize that once again, this isn't a simulator and there are constant unhistorical moves in the game?

Like a German rush for Ansuchluss early on? Japan holding off on war with China?

Picking and choosing what 'historical' things are in the game is a little silly.

And you know why players go for Yugoslavia early? Its becuase Italy is a crappy nation and needs more land to actually compete.

 

[kettyo]

i hope you guys know...historically Italy and Germany didnt go to war with yugoslavia until 1940, yet every italy player does it in 1936 or 37

1941 is the historically correct year of invasion.

 

[Casko]

i hope you guys know...historically Italy and Germany didnt go to war with yugoslavia until 1940, yet every italy player does it in 1936 or 37

you do realize that these guarantees are not only affecting Yugoslavia and Italy, but also Germans and Czechs. And general game balance, even without the historical context of actual historical invasion of Yugoslavia.

I mean. historical argument goes out of the window when WW2 starts in 1938.

 

[TheKillingJoke]

HIstorical accuracy should always take a back seat to Game Balance and Game Health. Of course within limits. No one is asking for Italy to be the new Germany, and no one is asking for Greece to suddenly rise up and conquer the world in 1937 with their space armies...

but the french guarentees are effecting ALOT of things. Greece can no longer go for Yugoslavia early for a Byzatine run. Actually, i think that Achievment might not be possible anymore.

 

[sekelsenmat]

It went prior to the game start, originating in 1927.

The Treaty of Friendship between France and Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (aka Yugoalsiva, note Cryingpanda), signed on November 1, 1927 in Paris, which was originally concluded for five years, but it was extended on November 10, 1932 and December 2, 1937.

Completely wrong. Read the text of the treaty, you can easily find it online.

It was NOT a defense guarantee. Compare with the treaty of Poland and Romania or UK and Poland.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

This guarantee creates interesting scenarios... E.g. As Austro-Hungary, I decided to go ahead and attack Yougoslavia early (to stop Italy/Germany getting their claws in). So I'm at war with France, get the Sudetenland event (border is strong, i'm not worried), and ... France joins the Axis. Wonderful.

 

[kettyo]

This guarantee creates interesting scenarios... E.g. As Austro-Hungary, I decided to go ahead and attack Yougoslavia early (to stop Italy/Germany getting their claws in). So I'm at war with France, get the Sudetenland event (border is strong, i'm not worried), and ... France joins the Axis. Wonderful.

This is a somewhat plausible scenario though. If you start kicking everyone in the ass, they'll tend to band together, it's normal reaction.

 

[Simon_9732495]

There is a Dev Statement on this topic:

The French guarantees for the Balkans exist to give more weight to the shift in French policy in the fascist branch. It is still possible to expand in the region, but you will have to fight for it. As Austria-hungary, you gain Austria and (probably) Czechoslovakia for free, but you need to gamble to gain Transylvania and if you want to push into Yugoslavia you will need to be ready to fight france. I think that is reasonable, you won't get free-ish territory forever. Italy, too is supposed to eventually end up in a war against a bigger enemy. Make sure you have good alliances - once Germany takes out France, her guranatees on Yugoslavia are meaningless.

Furthermore, Germany has event chains that deal with Czecholosvakia and Yugoslavia. If France backs down, the gurantees are removed.

And some game balance adjustments for 1.9.2 (most resent version of the game):

- if France backs down during the Sudeten Crisis, French guarantees on Yugoslavia will also be removed (no one believes you anymore France)
- French guarantees on Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia are now cancelled if France goes with Britain

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

- French guarantees on Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia are now cancelled if France goes with Britain

Thanks for the reply. That's useful to know - I guess go historical is the way to go then.

 

[Federkiel]

I had just checked - the French guarantee does indeed disappear once France joins the Allies. This happens about mid / late 1937. So Yugoslavia seems to remain an option for player controlled ITA if DoW is being justified early enough...

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

This is a somewhat plausible scenario though. If you start kicking everyone in the ass, they'll tend to band together, it's normal reaction.

It seems a little far fetched tbh, but it's not entirely impossible, I agree. It just made me laugh. The issue in the end was that though I could hold the borders and the coastline, their combined bomber weight destroyed my economy and it was game over.

As per guides from other players, I'll just wait for France to go with Britain …

 

[kettyo]

As per guides from other players, I'll just wait for France to go with Britain …

Or just give the Sudeten to Germany if France or Britain go ahistorical.

 

[Kryndude]

I'm not sure if anyone posted this, but there's a window of opportunity to attack Yugo alone as Italy. You need to start justifying war goal or claim before France completes Buy Time national focus otherwise it re-guarantees if you try to fabricate afterwards. Also, be careful not to exceed 25% world tension or UK will guarantee whichever country you're justifying. I find it best to take oil reserves from Iran (keep them alive as buffer between you and the Soviets, if you're planning to conquer British Raj for resources take the state adjacent to them, otherwise don't) but don't occupy its capital until you can declare war on Yugo so you don't have to peace out right away and generate world tension.

 

[blahmaster6k]

I'm not sure if anyone posted this, but there's a window of opportunity to attack Yugo alone as Italy. You need to start justifying war goal or claim before France completes Buy Time national focus otherwise it re-guarantees if you try to fabricate afterwards. Also, be careful not to exceed 25% world tension or UK will guarantee whichever country you're justifying. I find it best to take oil reserves from Iran (keep them alive as buffer between you and the Soviets, if you're planning to conquer British Raj for resources take the state adjacent to them, otherwise don't) but don't occupy its capital until you can declare war on Yugo so you don't have to peace out right away and generate world tension.

I just played a Co-op game with a (very new player) friend as the Axis. I was on Germany, he was on Italy. He had never won a game of HoI4 before. He has watched a lot of guides on youtube, but by no means is he a skilled Italy who knows all the tricks. He justified on Yugo right before finishing War With Greece, and tension went up to 27% about a month before he declared on both in January 38. Despite the tension increase, there were no new guarantees, just the standard Romanian guarantee on Greece. On historical AI it seems that France does its Buy Time focus in early 37, and the game is pretty lenient on the window an Italy player has to annex the Balkans.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

HIstorical accuracy should always take a back seat to Game Balance and Game Health. Of course within limits. No one is asking for Italy to be the new Germany, and no one is asking for Greece to suddenly rise up and conquer the world in 1937 with their space armies...

but the french guarentees are effecting ALOT of things. Greece can no longer go for Yugoslavia early for a Byzatine run. Actually, i think that Achievment might not be possible anymore.

It's possible (you can eventually 1 tag WC with any nation in the game, though for some it will take a long time), but random inconsistent stuff in the game is still bad.

As Italy you can just immediately shank France and then UK directly too, so Italy first and such are still doable too. In fact the random guarantee actually incentivizes this now.

 

[MobiusTwo]

I've sort of skimmed this whole thread, and the issue seems to be split - half of you are frustrated that this nerfs early game expansion, which is deemed to be necessary for Italy and Austria-Hungary, among others. The other half defends the new French guarantees because those guarantees were in place historically.

I would argue that the main problem is the way that peace deals work in this game. If I'm playing as Austria-Hungary, declare on Yugoslavia, and defeat both Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, I have no real navy with which to reach France, and the two of us are separated by the fascist powers of Germany and Italy. The war should end right there. France has a weak and divided government, and has also failed to back up its words with actions. At this point, the French should be more worried about a communist uprising than a stalemated war. You should be able to offer peace (a diplomatic option that has never worked...) or an event should end the war like how you can end the Second Sino-Japanese War as China once you've driven Japan off of mainland Asia.

Italy is in a bit of a different situation since they actually border France. However, some aspects of the above Austria-Hungary situation still apply. If I've defeated Yugoslavia and France, there is no good reason why Czechoslovakia should still be at war with me. We are separated by Germany and Hungary with no way to reach each other.