France getting stronger by the minute

[Havanabananaman]

Hey, let's have another of those threads !

I recently had a series of Ironman SP and some MP games where the obvious happened: The Bane of all free Kingdoms simply steamrolled through Europe, no questions asked.

in my Ironman game i played Castille - Allied Burgundy and did the most reasonable - attack France while they are in the 100 years War against England and Portugal (no other allies)
I used to be able to kill France as Burgundy and i came Close to winning as England in Ironman many a times, but this was bordering the ridiculous.
France with its Armies managed to destroy the Armies of Burgundy, England, Portugal and Castille, while attacking through rivers, hills and time itself (Basically half its army attacking Bearn (Now a Hill) and the other half utterly wrecking Burgundy)

After raging (and shameless cheating, just to Show 'em who's Boss) i decided to analyze the Situation and think about it:

I came to the conclusion everybody knows about: Jean Buerau and Vassals.

But this also let me think about the whole vassal Thing - Why does France - a Kingdom which was highly decentralised - Wins a prolonged War against all of Europe without any struggle ?
Surely this could be reflected in the games mechanics without destroying game Balance, could it not?

TL;DR

Why not add alot of Autonomy to France in the 1444 Setup - Balance it out so they are still a strong power, but not one that can kill all of its neighbours with no allies.

France getting help from allies is possible and happens quite often anyway (Mostly Hungarians for some reason)

 

[Denkt]

France are an extreamly powerful nation, often the strongest in the world.
They really shine in the early game if you compare them to Castille, I would recomed avoiding them if you can and instead focusing on getting powerful by trade, colonisation and maybe getting some easy land.
Reameber it was in the end GB not France that became dominate, why?
Because of trade, global trade and naval power, my little Norway have world largest income in 1550 just because it uber trade focused and Im not even gotten to asia yet, this is just with european trade, Im have like only taken two provinces in that game.
Now take a much stronger nation like Castille, and do the same.

 

[oblio-]

Topic starter, did you use mercenaries?

 

[hwoosh]

The suggestion about giving France's provinces higher autonomy in 1444 made me think: the setup with France's many vassal minors in 1444 is meant partly to represent France consolidating itself from a less centralized feudal monarchy to a more centralized state, right? And yet with the new autonomy system, France is actually militarily stronger (what with the extra force limits and the separate armies of the vassal swarm) than it would be if you gave France direct control over all those provinces, and then gave most of its provinces high autonomy. Ironic...

 

[Havanabananaman]

Topic starter, did you use mercenaries?

i Did use mercenaries, went over the forcelimit and dragged the war on to the Point where France had no Manpower left (while i had still ~20k)

i even had the southern vassals besieged, but in the end to no avail. I even had luck on my Ruler + Heir (both ended up with 4 Shock)

 

[Havanabananaman]

The suggestion about giving France's provinces higher autonomy in 1444 made me think: the setup with France's many vassal minors in 1444 is meant partly to represent France consolidating itself from a less centralized feudal monarchy to a more centralized state, right? And yet with the new autonomy system, France is actually militarily stronger (what with the extra force limits and the separate armies of the vassal swarm) than it would be if you gave France direct control over all those provinces, and then gave most of its provinces high autonomy. Ironic...

i had the same Feeling about this. It just feels very weird to think about. The strategy to defeat France now is to wait until they Annexed their vassals and then strike, because they make themselves weaker...

 

[Foxl]

Don't forget France starts the HYW with 4 good/great generals so attacking them early on might not be the best idea.

I wouldn't agree on weakening them further because nearly all enemies of France got boosts. Look at Englands base tax or Castilles for the matter.

Also as Castille I would wait until I got the PU for Aragon/Naples and cleared Granada before attacking them. Burgundy as an ally isn't really helpful, AI England usually doesn't waste much men in the HYW I had good success with Austria as an ally as long as they were the HRE.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

France seems weaker in my games. It takes them a lot longer to annex their vassals and then they have increased autonomy in those provinces. I haven't yet seen the early blobbing that's happened since vassal annexation speed was increased several patches ago. In two of my games since Art of War, Burgundy has actually defeated France and acquired territory. Seems like Burgundy has been sticking around more than usual, or perhaps that's just evidence of the randomness that is EU.

 

[Krask]

As it stands france is significantly nerfed this patch, albeit indirectly. They are still in the diplomatically isolated position they were always in, however this time spain starts with miltary traditions that, day 1 give the spanish army 10% more morale. Austria has been given military national ideas and, if i'm not mistaken traditions aswell, England has had it's basetax skyrocketted along with it's dominant trade in the channel means it's able to fund enough mercs to beat france in the HYW if played by a player reasonably easily.

So no, in my opinion, france is not stronger at all.

 

[Beagá]

The trick is spanking France early, once they annex their vassals and have diplo slots for other people, you can get into extra trouble.

Above all don´t let them annex Provence and Brittany. Yes they have god-like generals at the start of the game - but they will have them during the WHOLE game so that´s not really an excuse. Any western country also has the luxury of choosing a military idea first, as long as you use military focus, including regarding advisors. Quality might not be bad for Castille or Burgundy. Or Aristocracy.

 

[nalfz]

alot of Autonomy

 

[Havanabananaman]

As it stands france is significantly nerfed this patch, albeit indirectly. They are still in the diplomatically isolated position they were always in, however this time spain starts with miltary traditions that, day 1 give the spanish army 10% more morale. Austria has been given military national ideas and, if i'm not mistaken traditions aswell, England has had it's basetax skyrocketted along with it's dominant trade in the channel means it's able to fund enough mercs to beat france in the HYW if played by a player reasonably easily.

So no, in my opinion, france is not stronger at all.

i thought this was the case, but they might be stronger now since burgundy is always flatlands and bearn has been reduced to a hill - the only Mountain left is Dauphine, which is not accessible normally.

or i might not be good enough a Player anymore and just made a terrible rant thread, who knows...

 

[Incompetent]

I think the big advantage France has is that it's one big country fighting against several small countries, and those small countries don't coordinate their forces well enough, so France is able to defeat them in detail even though it's outnumbered overall.

I saw a similar situation recently: Burgundy (aggressor) vs a large alliance including Austria, Lithuania and a number of HRE minors. (I was technically a participant, but didn't actually send any troops over.) Looking at the total army sizes, Burgundy was outnumbered about 2:1, but because they kept their army in a single doomstack, while the other side were all over the place, they were able to keep fighting long enough to win the war (they didn't annex Liege like they wanted, but they still got war reparations). It wasn't just the element of surprise, either - the war went on for several years and the alliance won some battles, but they still weren't able to gather their forces in order to strike the killer blow against Burgundy's stack.

Another advantage I've noticed for France is that they have a good starting monarch, so they get to mil tech 5 fairly quickly, whereas some of their enemies are stuck at mil tech 3 for ages due to bad monarchs. Coupled with the high army tradition and good generals, it means that France punches well above its (already considerable) weight for the first 20-30 years of the game. If they are contained in that phase though, the tide can turn quite quickly when the starting generals die and other countries catch up on tech.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

/thread

Alternatively, /forum

 

[Casus_Belli]

Well, in my Austria game, France defeated my armies, who we're attacked in mountains by an army with Jean Bureau and 2k more, that shouldn't be happening...

 

[DKinator]

Amusingly, in my recent Hansa game, England won the HYW (only took provinces, though). Burgundy decided to follow suit and took a swath of land. France is now two different shades of red.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

>Burgundy
>Red

Don't insult the greatest color on the map.

 

[Autoclave]

I've seen Austria doing pretty well a few games against france, probably because of the morale buff, and a huge army after anexing burgundy. And if Brandenburg raises and is an ally of Austria, bad things can happen for France.

On a further note, France does make an amazing friend for Scandinavia. With France allied, you can handle GB, Spain and Portugal easily. I wipe their fleets, France kills their armies.

 

[Hamor]

Bad suggestion, declaring on France during the HYW is stupid due to as you said, Jean Bureu, just wait till burgundian inheritance happens and if you're playing castille ally Austria and bash France. Easy

 

[atwix]

if you declare on france before they make allies, you can prevent anyone called in, since they will be called into multiple wars.

And sorry to say, France is NOT unbeatable. What you have to do is coordinate the ally armies with a 1k stack of your own, move one province at a time, assess the situation, gather round a hill near Pyrenees or Alpes if Austria is involved, and lure France in.


You can even let the english army help you out, they will join YOUR battle versus France aswell if AI thinks you can win.

Of course France beats any army one on one.


Its the reason you lost..

Declare earlier, and manage army movement better, and you win. It takes a lot of micro managing though, but heck, its sooooooo rewarding if it works.

Oh by the way, one tip: don't use Burgundy as bait if their king or heir leads their army, their general will lead battle then. If he's crap you're toast. If Burgundy general/heir has bad shock stat, use them as last reinforcement.