France - Exploration ideas vs Expansion ideas

[Nitte Cera]

Old question: Which one should I choose as a second/third idea (Exploration would probably be better the earlier I take it and I need to wait for the maps to get shared for Expansion) playing France if I want to colonize, but not too heavily? I would take Exploration because it's better for colonization but the +1 Diplomatic Relations and the ability to fabricate in Trade Company Reigons are very appealing to me.


Edit: year is 1470, I took Aggressive Ideas as the first idea group, I have a PU over Castile, I am allied to Scotland, Venice and The Ottomans (All of them have pretty standard games), England is not even a great power, I split Portugal to two parts in a war and pretty much wrecked Aragon. The question has now changed to should I take Exploration, Expansion or Economics? I heard Economic Ideas is very good for France so should I take it before any of the others?

 

[SKOTy]

Exploration is in general much much better for colonization than expansion.
The +1 diplo relations can be countered by eating the penalty and claim fabrication can be bypassed by colonization of surrounding areas and fabricating from there. E.g. colonize Diego Garcia, from them fabricate on Maldives and from there you can comfortably fabricate on southern India.

I've never picked expansion apart from situations where I've needed 3rd colonist (some heavy colonization games) and when I did that I just bought 1st idea and ignored rest.

 

[afb]

Exploration. There is a discussion to be had about the cost efficiency of colonizing. But if you want to do it, you might as well do it right, and that involves Exploration.

I think people are a little too hard on Expansion, as the merchant, trade power and state maintenance actually makes it a decent boost to economy, but it certainly isn't one of the top groups. And early on, no explorers and no boost to colonial range makes the colonist useless for many countries.

 

[Ketilsen]

Expansion is generally only useful if you're going heavy colonial, and then only as a second to Exploration.

 

[Nitte Cera]

Exploration. There is a discussion to be had about the cost efficiency of colonizing. But if you want to do it, you might as well do it right, and that involves Exploration.

I think people are a little too hard on Expansion, as the merchant, trade power and state maintenance actually makes it a decent boost to economy, but it certainly isn't one of the top groups. And early on, no explorers and no boost to colonial range makes the colonist useless for many countries.

1. What is "early on"?
2. So when should I get Expansion over Exploration? The only time I see it being viable is when playing Russia and colonizing Sibir.

 

[Ketilsen]

1. What is "early on"?
2. So when should I get Expansion over Exploration? The only time I see it being viable is when playing Russia and colonizing Sibir.

I can answer this: 1: before you auto-discover the New World and Africa, Expansion is mostly useless. 2: You nailed it.

 

[f.l.]

1. What is "early on"?
2. So when should I get Expansion over Exploration? The only time I see it being viable is when playing Russia and colonizing Sibir.

1: As Fek already said. Though I have the impression that the whole auto-discover thing is not really reliable. (Can you steal maps from colonizers?)
2: Given that you have the corresponding expansions, not even then. It is much better to colonize Sibiria using the russian national idea "Siberian Frontier". As far as I see it, there is not a single scenario where it is useful to take Expansion without having taken Exploration previously.

 

[jdavis86]

It is even easier to grab Brittany as France this patch. As long as you get a colonial range diplo adviser, you can pick exploration first and dominate the Caribbean.

The merchant in expansion is perhaps more beneficial to France than some -- but if you get an early start on colonizing you should have plenty of merchants from CNs.

This is my current France game -- perhaps not anything too special but I only went with exploration. You can have 4 and maybe 5 colonies running at once.

 

[Vetgirig]

1. What is "early on"?
2. So when should I get Expansion over Exploration? The only time I see it being viable is when playing Russia and colonizing Sibir.

1. first 3 idea groups.

2. I never take Expansion. So never.

Expansion was viable when playing Russia but now they got a new way to colonize so today Expansion really is a idea groups that is in dire need for re-design.

 

[Northernwwater]

1: As Fek already said. Though I have the impression that the whole auto-discover thing is not really reliable. (Can you steal maps from colonizers?)

Yes.

 

[Northernwwater]

I took expansion as Japan to colonize SE Asia. It fit nicely given the other ideas of expansion.

 

[afb]

I took expansion as Japan to colonize SE Asia. It fit nicely given the other ideas of expansion.

I agree that this is one possible use, not just for Japan but also for Indonesian states, but I'd probably still prefer Exploration to colonize faster.

I could also see a use for Subsaharan African states that just want to fill out a couple of provinces to link up areas.

 

[Hootieleece]

If I am planning an heavy colonizing game as France.(Keeping France to French Region in Europe) I take Exploration either First or Second. (France needs Economics for some of its decisions) I usually take Expansion Fourth. The Third Colonist is useful and I like the extra merchant. I like to collect in Champagne, The English Channel, and Genoa. With those and CN's in Eastern America and the Caribbean. I can have good income to afford buildings and create a very powerful Tall France.

 

[Ulflander]

Always take Exploration, like people said, usually before 1500 as your 1st maaaybe 2nd trait.

Expansion is good if you're really in a tight colonial race or if your Japan/South Pacific/Russia

 

[Mr. G]

Expansion is good if you just want to fill out some gaps, like Mamluks in Africa (they also have admin to spare and are in need of one more diplo slot), But if you really want to go colonial, exploration is the way to go.

 

[Virupaksha]

As France expansion is very good as the second idea group. It helps if you can take Canaries, Ifni, Madeira or Azores beforehand to negate having to have both diplo tech 7 and 3 exploration ideas before reaching new world.

Exploration is best money idea group in the game. By 1550 or so you can have 5 merchants, 10 by about 1620. The merchant from expansionist is irrelevant. Plus one merchant is a very weak idea.

Exploration also gives high naval force limit which is invaluable in a blobbing game.

Expansion is not a viable group. Are you going to prefer it over admin or humanist? Certainly not in a colonial game where both of these are necessary. Vast majority of colonial territory comes from war until you have 6 CNs colonising for you for free.

 

[Northernwwater]

I find by 1600 or so Exploration looses it's appeal. So it's value varies drastically from when you get it to the point of being much less useful. I'm not saying don't take it, but that is what factors into my not always taking it when I want to colonize.

 

[Virupaksha]

I find by 1600 or so Exploration looses it's appeal. So it's value varies drastically from when you get it to the point of being much less useful. I'm not saying don't take it, but that is what factors into my not always taking it when I want to colonize.

Naval force limit holds no appeal?

 

[Northernwwater]

Naval force limit holds no appeal?

It does, but it just seems I can obtain enough through shipyards and going over force limit some that 25% does not make a big deal.

 

[Virupaksha]

It does, but it just seems I can obtain enough through shipyards and going over force limit some that 25% does not make a big deal.

Hard without exploration to get a cog for every land unit. I tend to build 30 shipyards as well as taking exploration and still be frustrated through lack of naval force limit.

You are right though, after 1600 exploration loses it's power. But it would appear even more powerful had you not taken it.