Make France and Austria historical rivals, stopping them from forming a super-alliance and leading to more interesting pan-European wars.
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France-Austria rivalry!
- Thread starter Aacronian
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I disagree, that's overly railroady when the two could find tons of common ground. Why fight each other over control of the Empire and Italy when they can just split it? I see Austria-French rivalries in quite a few games. You can simply restart the game after day one if France and Austria did not rival, when you wanted them to.
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They never did find common ground. Ever. Even in the 30 years war the French sided against the Catholic nations just to see Austria cry. An alliance between France and Austria is such a dangerous thing that leads to such a boring game (no leagues, pan-european wars, no threat to the HRE, no threat to France or Austria etc.)
Having the two powers ally freezes Europe, and making them historical rivals will prevent that from happening.
Having the two powers ally freezes Europe, and making them historical rivals will prevent that from happening.
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It's not fun to say that Austria and France can never be friends. History is not destiny.
In the timeframe of the game Austria and France had been allies. They found common ground.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_Revolution
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_Revolution
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The historical Franco-Habsburg alliance occured at a much later time, in the 1750s when Austria's power was waning. The problem with an early alliance in game is that it occurs when France and Austria are the great powers, and having them ally freezes Europe. Another possibility could be Austria starting as a rival for France, thus restricting the possible alliance for the first 100 or so years, when other great powers would have risen.
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Do not forget that Ingame, the Habsburg are rarely as powerful as in real life. If France was rebelling against Austria, it was especially under Charles V (Quint in French, but i dont know the English name), and the Spanish Habsburg allied with the Austrian one. France was directly surrounded, and this is why Richelieu, then, was willing to support the Smalkalde (Protestant League) during the 30YW which lowered a lot the Habsburg power. Then until the Spanish Succession War, France and Austria were not "rival". France was struggling against UK and Spain, while Austria was controling Ottoman Empire and Poland-Lithuania (and managing an undisciplined HRE).
This was "realpolitik". For instance, the Janissaries knew their first big defeat against the Austrian-French-some german forces during the XVII century.
On the other hand, i agree that an alliance between France and Austria in the beginning is painful. Maybe we could have a modifier like -50relations, (+3yearly) which would prevent an Alliance between the two during the first decades.
This was "realpolitik". For instance, the Janissaries knew their first big defeat against the Austrian-French-some german forces during the XVII century.
On the other hand, i agree that an alliance between France and Austria in the beginning is painful. Maybe we could have a modifier like -50relations, (+3yearly) which would prevent an Alliance between the two during the first decades.
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Exactly, or just as forced starting rivals, preventing that painful alliance from forming.
Such a rivalry will not end.
Usually when the BI happens they break their alliance. Before that france is ridiculous weak and can use any ally they can get.
Usually when the BI happens they break their alliance. Before that france is ridiculous weak and can use any ally they can get.
Woifee, i agree that France in the beginning is really weak. I never understood how people were willing her to be nerfed. Maybe Savoy could be the solution. Historically there were no threatening on France cause ... Burgundy was a vassal of France which was trying to get the best situation out of the HYW, and then Burgundy lost influence while after the very battle of Patay (1432 i think), England was virtually beaten.
So in 1444 you should have England trying to delay the fall of their French territory (which is ok ingame), and a Burgundy which should be linked to France, like a minor in a PU with high liberty desire but limited MP. Risk would be for France to be driven into a war with Burgundy supported by England. That would be, nevertheless quite matching with history.
With that system you could have a rivalry with Austria, without being able to be attacked on the east -considering Austria would still be hostile to Burgundy , and France would only have Burgundy / Spain (more likely Castille than Aragon) / England to deal with. Now despite my 800 hundred hours on EUIV, can you recall me something. Is it possible for a PU Minor to get vassals? Cause IRL Burgundy was less united than it is ingame.
So in 1444 you should have England trying to delay the fall of their French territory (which is ok ingame), and a Burgundy which should be linked to France, like a minor in a PU with high liberty desire but limited MP. Risk would be for France to be driven into a war with Burgundy supported by England. That would be, nevertheless quite matching with history.
With that system you could have a rivalry with Austria, without being able to be attacked on the east -considering Austria would still be hostile to Burgundy , and France would only have Burgundy / Spain (more likely Castille than Aragon) / England to deal with. Now despite my 800 hundred hours on EUIV, can you recall me something. Is it possible for a PU Minor to get vassals? Cause IRL Burgundy was less united than it is ingame.
The problem with France is they start out weak, with Burgundy and Swarm or England being able to beat it if they desire. But they grow strong. Quickly. By 1500 they tend to have 60k troops and normally the only European to stop them is Austria OH WAIT FRANCE ALLIED WITH AUSTRIA IN 1444! WOOP! WOOP! The whole of Europe becomes a boring, uneventful blob.
@ Woifee Yes but if the inheritance doesn't fire France will use the Austrian might to take that land anyway. :\
@ Woifee Yes but if the inheritance doesn't fire France will use the Austrian might to take that land anyway. :\
If the inheritance doesn't fire Burgundy beats France anyway and will eat it up.
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