France as HRE with Shadow Kingdom

[Basic Cable]

So I was trying this last night, and got a reasonably good start, but was hoping to do a little better--let me explain:

At the start, broke diplo spots with Provence and Scotland, and allied Trier, Cologne, Mainz, and Saxony, making sure that they weren't rivaling one another. Guaranteed, RM'ed, Mil Access, Transfer trade power all that I could for their votes. Also RM'ed Burgundy, who was friendly. Fought England and Portugal, took all my cores, including Calais, and waited until Emperor died. Became HRE and then got full Burgundian inheritance. At this point it was 1465-66, and so I had 25 years to stop Shadow Kingdom. I decided to go for it just to see what would happen. Popeman had taken Provencal provinces and allied Venice, so full sieged all provinces available to me except Venezia. I forced Venice to give back Brescia, and then took Rome and Umbria from Pope. This created a truce until 1487, and caused a lot of AE with Italian states, so it looked like preventing it was near impossible.

It looked like the only way I could have made it work was if I had perhaps just taken Brescia and Verona myself, leaving Treviso and Friuli left to take, and then maybe that would have made it possible to take some of Popeman's Ancona/Romagna region provinces, rather than having to take Rome first for massive AE and truce timer.

Is there a better way to do this as France? Or is it even worth it? I suppose I could just take the Naples claims and work my way back up through Italy from the south after Shadow Kingdom fires, and return the nations after adding them back to HRE myself...but seems like a lot of work, especially since I'd be getting so close to Reformation, and would also need to be preparing provinces in mainland HRE for that. The only way I could see it working in my favor is if before Austria dies they take provinces from Venice and add them to HRE.

On this playthrough I'd like to go for BBB and Mare Nostrum achievements which I've seen people do with roughly the same conditions as above, but I don't know if it's possible to do both of these while also preventing SK and ruling HRE. Maybe I'm being greedy...

Thoughts?

 

[Dominion]

My first question would be: Why?

Which would also be my second and third question.

Preventing the SKE hasn't been worth it for as long as I can remember.

 

[SPAMbuca]

It can be worth it I feel. As a French emperor, you're guaranteed to pass about 4, maybe even 5 reforms before the leagues fire if you do things well and keep the Italian princes.

I think the best way to do it, is to go massively over relationship limit so no coalitions spawn.

If you do manage to pass those reforms, it leads to a bigger vassal swarm/bigger emperor benefits etc.

 

[f.l.]

Preventing the SKE hasn't been worth it for as long as I can remember.

Why isn't it worth it?

On the way to prevent Shadow Kingdom you get nicely developed provinces, get IA by adding them to the HRE, weaken italian minors because of the italian triggered modifier and keep more princes in the empire which trickles even more IA. As Austria, it is even better as you get access to Venice trade node.

 

[Dominion]

Why isn't it worth it?

On the way to prevent Shadow Kingdom you get nicely developed provinces, get IA by adding them to the HRE, weaken italian minors because of the italian triggered modifier and keep more princes in the empire which trickles even more IA. As Austria, it is even better as you get access to Venice trade node.

That's a non-sequitor.

"It is a good idea because it gives development" can be used to justify a no-cb war against Castille, Aragon, England and Denmark in 1445. You're stronger, so you'll get dev. Good decision, no? No.

- They're still HRE members, so they create increased AE. The provinces you take before SKE fires are easier to get after it fired.
- Weakening Italian minors is irrelevant since they do not blob and are therefor never a threat. You also don't need to take them out to reduce potential coalition members since you either take them later, thereby creating less AE, they don't get any at all (taking England) or not enough to form a coalition (Iberia)
- Monthly IA gains are nothing compared to IA gains from blobbing
- Even in an RP game the additional IA you get from them is a net loss since you will have missed out on building a bridge into the HRE, preventing internal wars on top of missing out on the IA from provinces you need to liberate since preventing the SKE gets you dangerously close to coalition levels all on its own and reduces further conquest options.

 

[sti]

And that is such a non answer.

It is good because it gives you more lands when you revoke. None of the thing you said are really that negative. Maybe it is too hard as France but it is very doable as Austria so the blanket dismissal seems rather odd.

 

[Dominion]

And that is such a non answer.

It is good because it gives you more lands when you revoke. None of the thing you said are really that negative. Maybe it is too hard as France but it is very doable as Austria so the blanket dismissal seems rather odd.

Too much AE is never a non answer.

Neither is "it's more expensive than doing it the other way"

 

[Virupaksha]

Like Dominion I do not understand why you would want to prevent the shadow kingdom.

More HRE=More AE.

 

[Big Bad France]

Venice and the Papal States do not start out in the HRE, so I don't see why AE would be lower if you let all of the other Italian minors leave.

 

[Big Bad France]

So I was trying this last night, and got a reasonably good start, but was hoping to do a little better--let me explain:

At the start, broke diplo spots with Provence and Scotland, and allied Trier, Cologne, Mainz, and Saxony, making sure that they weren't rivaling one another. Guaranteed, RM'ed, Mil Access, Transfer trade power all that I could for their votes. Also RM'ed Burgundy, who was friendly. Fought England and Portugal, took all my cores, including Calais, and waited until Emperor died. Became HRE and then got full Burgundian inheritance. At this point it was 1465-66, and so I had 25 years to stop Shadow Kingdom. I decided to go for it just to see what would happen. Popeman had taken Provencal provinces and allied Venice, so full sieged all provinces available to me except Venezia. I forced Venice to give back Brescia, and then took Rome and Umbria from Pope. This created a truce until 1487, and caused a lot of AE with Italian states, so it looked like preventing it was near impossible.

It looked like the only way I could have made it work was if I had perhaps just taken Brescia and Verona myself, leaving Treviso and Friuli left to take, and then maybe that would have made it possible to take some of Popeman's Ancona/Romagna region provinces, rather than having to take Rome first for massive AE and truce timer.

Is there a better way to do this as France? Or is it even worth it? I suppose I could just take the Naples claims and work my way back up through Italy from the south after Shadow Kingdom fires, and return the nations after adding them back to HRE myself...but seems like a lot of work, especially since I'd be getting so close to Reformation, and would also need to be preparing provinces in mainland HRE for that. The only way I could see it working in my favor is if before Austria dies they take provinces from Venice and add them to HRE.

On this playthrough I'd like to go for BBB and Mare Nostrum achievements which I've seen people do with roughly the same conditions as above, but I don't know if it's possible to do both of these while also preventing SK and ruling HRE. Maybe I'm being greedy...

Thoughts?

If you are going to stop the shadow kingdom, you need to take Rome last. That way you can use the decision and return it without having to core it. I really don't think you have time to realistically pull if off, though. At least you don't have time to make it worthwhile. It's probably faster and easier to just let the Italian states leave and then pick up imperial authority from conquering them and adding them back to the empire.

 

[Basic Cable]

I think that's the major problem, Big Bad France. Unless I had already broken into the northern Italian states or Naples (causing AE in and of itself), I would already be way behind Austria preventing SKE. However, I know what I'm aiming for now so I think the way I'm going to try to approach is it that while I have the electors ready and am waiting for Austria to die, I'll have already been working on Venice, and hopefully only leave Popeman to deal with. We'll see how it works out, since I won't be generating much AE with conquering England and none with Burgundy.

Alternatively, letting them leave and readding them, having already having taken Naples and perhaps some Popeman provinces as a foothold is not a bad strategy.

I'll let you all know how it works out, thanks for your advice!

 

[Big Bad France]

The AE you generate fighting England just doesn't translate to AE in Italy, though. It's regional. If you are getting AE from Burgundy, that would reach northwest Italy, but that is pretty much it.

I think the best way to make it work is probably to fabricate a claim on the Papal States territory nearest you, and when you make peace, take 1 province on their east coast. Don't bother taking the territory you have a claim on. Then start fabricating claims on everything else. Moving through northwest Italy just doesn't work because all of that land is in the HRE.

When I stop the shadow kingdom as Austria, I usually don't actually get a coalition, but I do get really close to one. I think that as France, you would pull Austria into a coalition and it would fire every time. Austria is just too close to Venice and the Papal States.

 

[knoddy]

Go after the papacy before going after burgundy, same as with Austria, you take papacy and Venice first then, force the BI after while your truce is up. Also take Rome last not first, it's the most ae, and you will just want to enact the decision and then give Rome back via the event.

After that is all done, spread yourself around the empire, so try and get yourself into Denmark, and Poland/Teutonic order, and balkans area. This is so when the centres of reformation start you can attack whoever gets them to slow the reformation down, pass as many reforms as you can, expand outside the empire, and then before the leagues form add all your land and try and pass those last few reforms to stop the leagues.

 

[JorgeP]

I have stopped the shadow kingdom with Castile a few times. It's not easy, but it's fun. One way to reduce AE is to release Aquilea and Ancona and diplovassalize them. After passing the event you can lose a small war on purpose to break vassalization and avoid wasting two diplo slots.

 

[gia257]

Too much AE is never a non answer.

Neither is "it's more expensive than doing it the other way"

gee, just take it as a challenge run and stop trying to change ops mind, waste of posts to keep more than one about it rather than the topic, can you prevent the shadow kingdom as france and end as emperor by then consistently?

1) You need to reach the pope and venice.
2) I dont recall colonial range but if you become emperor first you can core anywhere.
3) if you take too long to become emperor you wont be able due to AE (unless you do anyway and pay up coalitions, so technically possible)

One option, ally pope, separate peace on whatever of their wars with florence/ferrara/venice and get a beachhead. Problem, pope tends to aim for provence first. Counter: when they do provence usually gets excommunicated, so you could try to get draguignan cheap so you can be closer.

Another, ally castille and fight aragon, if range allows get cosenza or calabria (dev 5/6, minimum ae), which allows to fabricate on corfu so you can get treviso instead. From there you have access to all the land you need.

As a plus, if you do this before becoming emperor, keep low relations and fabricate claims on the non hre around, theyll probably feel threatened, release nations when into high ae, theres a chance they add themselves.

Doing this before becoming emperor reduces your chances of doing so since ae, but its the only way I believe. You would have to leave your reconquests till later probably.

With coalition forming, wait until you are emperor, protect /warn whoever needs to so land doesnt go places you dont want. Go to war with both venice and pope often to get them rid of their allies/break rivalry and hopefully get them to ally each other. Do get a beachhead for range if needed, but as cheap as possible.

When you do become emperor, get all the land in a single war, loan up and pay the coalition, pray your emperor lives long enough to get reelected.

 

[Dominion]

just take it as a challenge run and stop trying to change ops mind, can you prevent the shadow kingdom as france and end as emperor by then consistently?

Yknow, I read Basic Cable's post before commenting.

Is there a better way to do this as France? Or is it even worth it?

Sounds like he's asking if it's even worth it.

 

[Rudawitz]

As France I got a PU over Aragon and Naples. After that I marked the needed provinces as "vital interest" and Naples fabricated claims on them. I got elected as emperor before I started to expand aggressively in Italy, so that made it easier. It's not a reliable strategy, but it can work with a bit of luck.