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Evie HJ

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I'm not sure if this would actually help those countries. When you have uncontested cores, you are hit with a sharp prestige penalty.


Anyway, what people are missing here is that France is a UNION tag. It's supposed to be made up of smaller parts. It's a union of smaller entities. No province should ever just have only a union core, IMO.

Union tags reflect cultural diversity. It has nothing to do with being made up of smaller parts or not. Lots of nations that aren't Union tags were created from smaller parts at one point or another - England, Castille, Aragon were all made up of smaller parts, too.é

And the in-game effects of having throngs of core are the complete opposite of what a union should be. A union is the nation of all its people...therefore we make it easier to break its people apart?
 

fanoI

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IMHO to be more correct other countries should be able to be "balkanized" I want to divide in England in Leinster, Northurberlnand and so on, Austria in Tyrol, Carintia and so on...

On the other side with the correct government type (Absolute Monarchy? Revolutionary Republic / Empire?) should be possible to revoke all the core of de jure vassals and not be "balkanizable" anymore...

Correct you should get a little of infamy to have destroyed a nation...
 

Richard Dolder

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Well, I do think that releasing a nation should cost at least as much as taking the provinces. And if the target nation is a union it should give you infamy (or EU4 equivalent).

Absolutely not, we need more war goals than just conquest not more reasons to go "ALL CONQUEST ALL THE TIME".
Everything other than conquest needs to be heavily encouraged to be worth considering compared to the permanent manpower/gold bump, and that encourages more realistic behavior from the player.
 

Mr. Domino

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Apparently, no one remembers pre-HttH EU3.

I think this this is true-France's many vassals and cores were a balance issue. France was far too strong, too early with a 1399 start date. I imagine that was somewhat historical-how much better would France have fared in the 15th century if Henry V had unceremoniously died after getting bogged down in some meaningless war in Ireland? Agincourt/Treaty of Troyes rarely happened in most games of Eu3. With the vassals France was slowed down even if England's HYW ends in a fiasco. This gives Castile and other states time to get their act together.

Starting at 1444 solves many of those problems-France should probably start with high War Exhaustion and England and Burgundy still mucking around on the continent which means they will still have to eat up time finishing off the HYW and recovering.

I actually think balancing France is tricky. Historically, metropolitan France should be rich and populous enough to allow it to compete evenly with a massive Hapsburg alliance. But its fairly easy for a French human/AI to grab all of metropolitan France if they start in 1399 while, at least in Eu3,it is much harder for Austria or Spain to do as well as they historically did. You then often end up with a strong united France invading a divided Iberia or waging a successfully crusade against Ottomans who never managed to even expand into Egypt. OTOH Eu3s solution of reducing French manpower or census tax to levels that were only a little larger than English or Iberian levels strikes me as a little weird.
 
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Fawr

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I've seen a similar issue with English cores in Great Britain.

I don't think releasing England is a likely outcome, just like releasing Burgandy from France after a defeat was an unlikely outcome in the 1600s. I think the solution is to make it cost more war score to release countries including cored, right religion, right culture provinces.
 

spyroware1

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Well the silly part is when POR or CAS gobble up one of said vassals and it stays their territory until the end of the game lulz

I dont think France has many tools to deal with the minors or Burgundy. The problem lies in the war/alliances/CB mechanics really: since the minors are allied with each other it takes one war every 10 years for 1-2 core provinces. Obviously you cant do that for all 10+ minors. of course despite that serious problem France is artificially bloated to perform well (it wouldnt feel right without a strong France) so you can have a limp France that's unable to get its territorial sh*t together that is impossible to beat in a war unless you are emperor and you go all out. (and yet it wont conquer BUR or the minors!)
 

Checco

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I think some ppl miss the point here, no offence meant.

"France must not be a powerhouse from 1400" and "Balkanization of Spain and England must be on the same level of France and HRE" are two entirely different issues.

I do not like the BBB bordering Denmark in 1400 either, but the solution should be different from making it prone to balkanization; (and there are plenty of solutions out there, some mods already solved this issue)

Allowing a big nation to become quite vulnerable to balkanization to nerf it is not the best solution, it's a way to simplify things. If it has to be nerved, do it the proper way.
 

DoomBunny

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France's potential for balkanizing was a bit obscene. More importantly, it was also a waste of tags. The doubling up of Guyenne and Toulouse in particular.

So I'll add my name to requesting Spain and England get their respective divisions as well.

Wait, so you agree that these duchies are a waste of tags and a give obscene opportunity for balkanisation, yet want more of them?

I think the best solution, is to include cores for only those duchies independent at start, and make an event that fires when the Duchy no longer exists removing all the Duchies cores.

This shouldn't apply to Brittany or Occitan, which should keep their cores throughout.
 

justin6477

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Wait, so you agree that these duchies are a waste of tags and a give obscene opportunity for balkanisation, yet want more of them?

I think it's a waste of tags because of the overlap. Foix, Guyenne, Toulouse, Armagnac, Provence, Avignon, Dauphine, and Auvergne are all South of France with substantial overlap. I'd do away with about half of them. The issue for me isn't that France can be partitioned, I think that's perfectly fine. Instead, the issue for me is that it can be partitioned, and its pieces can be partitioned further. England release of Northumbria for example should take away Cumbria, Northumbria, York, and Lancaster. Or at least 2 of those 4. I'd do away with Cornwall as well, instead making it part of Wales. Although the major powers should have constituent nations inside them, it is ludicrous for them to potentially release a horde of OPMs and 2PMs that all have claims on each other. I'd obviously make an exception for Germany and Italy {which of course exist outside the game's timeframe} because a horde of minors is the only way to appropriately reflect their political situations.
 

Fawr

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Yeah, but France was that powerful back then.
To me the issue with France in IN wasn't that it was superpowered at the start. The problem was that the initial strength let France grow, and the more it grew the stronger it got.

Hopefully in EU4 we won't have the same snowball effect. That would let a strong France exist (certainly by 1500), but without making France continue to grow until it dominates the rest of Europe by 1600.
 

Wallain

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Absolutely not, we need more war goals than just conquest not more reasons to go "ALL CONQUEST ALL THE TIME".
Everything other than conquest needs to be heavily encouraged to be worth considering compared to the permanent manpower/gold bump, and that encourages more realistic behavior from the player.
Sure. We do need more war goals, but we also need balance. Liberation in EU3 is just too powerful - you can utterly crush another nation with that and ensure they never recover. It is far, far better than conquest.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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To me the issue with France in IN wasn't that it was superpowered at the start. The problem was that the initial strength let France grow, and the more it grew the stronger it got.

Hopefully in EU4 we won't have the same snowball effect. That would let a strong France exist (certainly by 1500), but without making France continue to grow until it dominates the rest of Europe by 1600.
That's the problem with the A.I, which does not do containment wars.
 

Fredmonroe

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Sure. We do need more war goals, but we also need balance. Liberation in EU3 is just too powerful - you can utterly crush another nation with that and ensure they never recover. It is far, far better than conquest.

The only problem with liberation is that it creates an alliance between the released nations and the victor of the war. EU3 allows a nation to create a huge network of allies in small splinter states, which in turn makes sure that no splinter state can ever be reabsorbed, and allows for easy vassals. These smaller states would be ever stronger in EU4 what with monarch points and the such favoring smaller nations.

If there were no alliances created, it would be fairly balanced imo. It would work to set back the parent nations, but not permanently derail it, as it would have cores on the splinter nations and would be able to gradually re-absorb them. This would be especially useful for MP, where you could gimp a strong player by giving him the setbacks of these countries, without permanently destroying him - which is no fun. With alliances, the crippled nation simply has no chance to take these provinces back, as it has to defeat the enemy it just lost to and then some.

The warscore cost for splintering nations if there were no alliances I feel is pretty fair. If there are to remain alliances, then I feel the warscore cost should be increased significantly, and the released nation should be a vassal (to symbolize that it is a puppet nation), not just an ally.

Edit: More on topic - I feel that Balkanization of any nation, especially France, is very fair as it sort of works like a war of containment and is really the only way to check a nations power. You can't check their power by crippling them economically and putting them into debt as you cannot demand more ducats than they own, and you cannot really demand a huge amount of provinces from them either for many reasons. Balkanization should be added to nations that lack it. France/Germany/Italy are highly susceptible to it, maybe increase the the amount in other nations like England, Spain, and perhaps some of the Eastern powers? As long as there are no auto-alliances, it should work out just fine.
 
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Evie HJ

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Fredmonroe - there's nothing balanced about it, because it allow you to deprive a nation of half its core provinces or more at little to no cost, leaving that nation (which just lost a war) in no shape to reclaim anything, and getting ganged up by a dozen other nations which will also demand release, thus resulting in implosion.

Whether or not they're allied with you is irrelevant when their former master has lost all their armies, and will be getting jumped upon by anyone with half a CB, and be consquently forced to release even more nation, before they even have a chance to recover. All the more so if you just forced them to release half of their most valuable provinces via balkanization.

It's not a realistic or historical option, it's not a balanced one, and it makes taking big nations down way easier than it has any right to be.
 

Fredmonroe

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Aug 21, 2010
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Fredmonroe - there's nothing balanced about it, because it allow you to deprive a nation of half its core provinces or more at little to no cost, leaving that nation (which just lost a war) in no shape to reclaim anything, and getting ganged up by a dozen other nations which will also demand release, thus resulting in implosion.

I don't play much of vanilla EU3, but I don't think the mechanics here have been changed that dramatically from the mods I play. Depriving a nation of "half of its core provinces or more," is quite a formidable task war-score wise. In the case of France, you would need an absolutely massive warscore that would most likely take several years possibly even decades to achieve. Several years of total war would severely limit many things in EU3, like your teching and province upgrades, not to mention it would increase your War Exhaustion, and would leave you extremely weak in the case you were attacked - which when you're at war is when the AI tends to strike.

I wouldn't describe that as "little to no cost." If you annihilate an enemy in total war, then you should be able to demand a lot. And while total wars aren't accurate for the beginning time period, like it or not, it is what the game simulates. If you want examples of "liberation" after a total war, you can look at what happened to Austria-Hungary after WW1, or Germany after WW2, or France during WW2.

Losing a war terribly, as is required to even have extreme amounts of released nations already makes a nation very weak due to WE and lack of money and manpower and standing armies, etc etc. I don't see how a nation being susceptible to attack from other nations after it loses a war is an argument that releasing nations is overpowered.

Whether or not they're allied with you is irrelevant when their former master has lost all their armies, and will be getting jumped upon by anyone with half a CB, and be consquently forced to release even more nation, before they even have a chance to recover. All the more so if you just forced them to release half of their most valuable provinces via balkanization.
I think it is extremely important. Perhaps we've had different games, but I've had a lot of instances where the mother nation was able to regain its power once I abandoned my alliances with the splinter states. Having alliances or not is the difference between there being a chance for recovery, or none at all. It is also an overpowered option for coalition building, which makes the game much too easy.

It's not a realistic or historical option, it's not a balanced one, and it makes taking big nations down way easier than it has any right to be.

The problem is that EU3 and most likely EU4 model total wars, which are not really historically accurate until much later, some would even argue not until even the American Civil war. However, the realistic and historic precedence for total wars very often does lead to devastating peace conditions. IF EU4 is to model total wars, then heavy surrender terms are both realistic and historic.

Balance wise it's another question. If forcing a nation to release a huge amount of it's country requires little warscore, then I agree with you that that is not balanced. If it requires a huge warscore, like utter 100% victory for example, then I feel this is balanced, and often times is very hard to achieve. It would not make taking down a huge nation to size easier than it has the rights to be.