France and the Age of Explorations

[PJL]

A couple of points I might add - the French king at the start of the 1492 campaign is Louis XII who has a high military rating of 8. Now since military ability of a monarch now affects the armies morale, perhaps this needs to be tweaked a bit down to say 5 or 6, unless someone can give me a good historical reason why Louis XII was good mililtary commander.

Another thing is that France DP on defensive/offensve is 5 (half way). Given that it says in the in game blurb for France in the AOE scenario that the French kings during the latter half of the 15th century were preparing for another English invasion, perhaps it might be a good idea to take the slider a bit more towards defensive (3 or 4) to reflect this. By doing so, it also has the nice advantage of toning down the effects of the French cavalry by lowering morale slightly.

 

[TheArchduke]

French players tend to play fairly short-term that is right. But you can play it in another way really. Check Red´s dedicated when I played France:

Various Economic Statistics in 1615
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trade Income Per Annum:

France - 1202
Spain - 1031
Sweden - 623
Ottoman Empire - 406
England - 399
Russia - 41
Austria - 36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
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Total Income Per Month:

Spain - 343
France - 232
England - 163
Sweden - 139
Ottoman Empire - 119
Austria - 84
Russia - 56



Struggle for Supremacy

France is too strong but only a bit. What really needs to be changed is the attitude of the players. And I think that the possibility of colonial culture changes should prevent France from early-game panic.

 

[RedPhoenix]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
French players tend to play fairly short-term that is right. But you can play it in another way really. Check Red´s dedicated when I played France:

Various Economic Statistics in 1615
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trade Income Per Annum:

France - 1202
Spain - 1031
Sweden - 623
Ottoman Empire - 406
England - 399
Russia - 41
Austria - 36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Income Per Month:

Spain - 343
France - 232
England - 163
Sweden - 139
Ottoman Empire - 119
Austria - 84
Russia - 56



Struggle for Supremacy

France is too strong but only a bit. What really needs to be changed is the attitude of the players. And I think that the possibility of colonial culture changes should prevent France from early-game panic.

you forgot to mention all the maps and favors you gained from others so you could have a colonial empire, plus the areas you colonized, would be much more heavily contested in a 16 player game rather than 6 that this was at the time.

plus ottoman stats are from a time they were in the middle of a civil war followed by the 1613 or so, internal crises. they had much higher income prior to that ( I think over 200d a month)

what I mean is, how could you have built that nation up if you didn't get spanish maps for colonizing, and spain took whole world for him self with portugal. That doesn't leave much for france

 

[JohnMK]

I support the core removals of Artois, Franche-Comte, Lorraine, and don't forget Roussillon. If this is hypocritical, well -- I really don't care. It's not like Austria gets all her cores in 1492. She gets them over time, via events . . .

The provinces in question were all conquered and sometimes relinquished -- during the reign of Louis XIV. Roussillon in 1659 & Franche-Comte in 1679, Artois in various parts & slivers from 1659-90's, and the Duke of Lorraine was subject to the Holy Roman Empire until 1766, at which time by previous arrangement, at the Duke's death, Lorraine became subject to the King of France, but still enjoyed far greater autonomy than anywhere else in France, so I'd represent that as a vassalship, at that time, rather than an inheritance.

As for the OE, that's a special case. The shields are there ostensibly to allow a historically quick conquest and expansion without incurring the wrath of the world (bb points).

Further, I'd start Roussillon off with iberian culture.

 

[Prince Eugene]

Everyone just thinks France is strong because rarely do you see and Spain and Austria that know what they are doing. I support PJL's ideas, of course. Wilhelmus and I went to prove that Spain alone was superior to France. I played France and he played Spain. He beat me. He played France and I played Spain. I beat him. Austria attempted to intervene, but really the player had no idea what they were doing. Offensive wars in Spain are hell beyond Cantabria and Roussillon.

 

[JohnMK]

I find it hard to believe the power of the placebo didn't come into play there, i.e. self-fulfilling prophecy; in any event that's not really a fair test, and maybe it's not even the point. You didn't have an Ottoman, Polish, English, Danish, etc., player.

But the threat really isn't about can France win territory in Iberia or vice versa. It's partly what France can inflict via war exhaustion -- that's her most potent weapon. France is lumped into one big square-shaped, easily-defensible piece where pure cav armies can go from Languedoc to Picardie in about 2 months. And with her cores adjusted to something far more realistic, it's just that much less of a weapon. Further, Roussillon was in fact Catalan in this time period, not French. Since Catalan in the game is represented as Iberian, it should be changed to Iberian and the core from France removed. Perpinyà never considered itself French or Iberian but given the choice, having been in cooperation with the Aragonese throne for the better part of 1000 years, I'm sure Iberian is far more fitting. If that's on shaky grounds then French is on no grounds whatsoever.

 

[unmerged(5206)]

if you remove france comte , artois and lorraine, you should remove navarra from spain also, as they didnt get it for a long time. Also it would mean you have to remove a bunch of other cores from many nations, or you could link france comte and lorraine to some events, yeah that change is likely to happen though without Johan doing it

france did gain lorraine artois and france comte early in the 17th century. I think they should be french cores just as much as Ottoman, or any other nations cores they gained by war.

Spain took Navarre in 1512. France should gain cores on Lorraine, Artois, and other such territories in the Chambers of Reunion.

Furthermore, if we want to create a historical situation in France, we should do the same in Spain by creating an independent Aragon that would be inherited in 1520.

Here's an interesting map:

 

[unmerged(2833)]

I though Francois was in fact quite nice monarch when it came to military matters.

Never heard of that English invasion, but well, i'm not an expert on French/English relations.

Catalan isn't only Iberian. Its apparently split between Iberian and French, since Rousillion is French. I guess Celedhring could argue that having Rousillion as French is just as silly as having it as Iberian

(note-this post obviously doesn't have a point)

 

[JohnMK]

From my own research (just from google) it seems the Catalan in Roussillon would identify more strongly with the the Iberian cultures rather than the French culture. But point taken.

I suspect the reason it was given French culture is because of deterministic history, just like the shield was given. It was felt because France owned this, and French-ized it (rather unsuccessfully, really, it's still pretty damn Catalan/Iberian in flavor to this day, in architecture & language), after 1659, that it deserved core and French culture. But I think the more coherent argument is that it should be Iberian because, well . . . Spain starts with it. It was never rebellious to Spain. And if you give it French culture, well then why not Gerona & Barcelona & Aragon? These places were Catalan too. In fact I'd go so far as to give Spain that province as core. Of course, the best fix would be to give France & Spain & Aragon - Catalan culture, and change the few affected provinces to Catalan.

I'm sure we could get Peter to do all the work and submit his results to Johan.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Mowers
You touch on a large number of issues Peter making some interesting observations.

French players do follow the pattern that you suggest for the reasons that you put forth. I would add another and that is cultural . It is almost de rigour to turn France into a war machine via its sliders. The cultural reasons behind this are due to the length of campaigns, the emphasis on military success and the popularity of the 1492 scenario. People have got very good at creating a French military machine via sliders from 1492-1540. What they don’t have experience of doing is playing a long game and thus they don’t prepare, they cant clear that cultural hurdle and thus France ultimately loses out. I have seen this 4 times in a row now from my own games.

I do believe that France is too strong at the start. There is clear evidence that France wasn’t as united as claimed. The game simulates a world in which French hegemony is continually fought against when it was clearly Hapsberg hegemony that was fought against.

Thus I would support any changes that improve the realism. I would support your current changes especially regarding the shield removal, they make no historical sense. But I don’t understand the lowering of the naval slider, I accept that France as a country had no naval history, but navies at the time were not based on a country based implementation but a regional based implementation.

I would also advocate the introduction of 2 vassals within France proper each with 2 provinces. This is a clumsy way to simulate the situation but it is clearly the best way to achieve a more realistic simulation. I don’t know enough about navarre to comment.

I would run this scenario in Tsunami II.

Apart from making France weaker maybe the players need to change. Far too often they antagonize everyone with Powerplay instead of slowly building up.

With decent playing you can likely become the second wealthiest power in the world. And most time the threat of war with France is better than war itself.

 

[Stingray]

Perhaps give rouissillon to navarra and move the capitol there. I've got no idea about the history about that place but: The game's own historic fact state that the southern part of Navarra was taken by spain, and later, the northern part was annexed by france. And this would make it possible for Spain to take navarra in one single war as well.

 

[Owen]

Originally posted by Stingray
Perhaps give rouissillon to navarra and move the capitol there. I've got no idea about the history about that place but: The game's own historic fact state that the southern part of Navarra was taken by spain, and later, the northern part was annexed by france. And this would make it possible for Spain to take navarra in one single war as well.

Stingray, I think you mean Bearn, not Roussillon.

 

[N Katsyev]

I definitely would not be opposed to the change of Roussillon to Iberian culture. Many of the other ideas i'm not quite sold on yet. It seems to be a matter of player-style more than anything. Some just seem more easy to put themselves in the position of warmongering, which as stated just dooms them later.

edit: I'd like to add, I definitely do support as well the removal of French cores on Artois, Franche Comte, Lorraine, and Rousillon until the later event.

 

[Prince Eugene]

Power to the Bourbons!

Originally posted by Fate
Spain took Navarre in 1512. France should gain cores on Lorraine, Artois, and other such territories in the Chambers of Reunion.

Furthermore, if we want to create a historical situation in France, we should do the same in Spain by creating an independent Aragon that would be inherited in 1520.

Here's an interesting map:

The Duke of Bourbon had immense power in France in the late 15th century and the early 16th century. Charles Bourbon was a favorite of King Louis XII and an excellent military leader (and he isn't even represented in the game!). At one point many historians believed that if there was a civil war in France half of the nobles would side with Charles Bourbon. Sadly enough, there isn't even a Duchy of Bourbon in the Age of Exploration.

A blunt briefing I found

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Bourbon, Charles, duc de, 1490-1527, constable of France and governor of Milan. He distinguished himself at the battle of Marignano (1515) in the Italian Wars between King Francis I and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. Enmity, encouraged by the queen mother, Louise of Savoy, arose between King Francis I and the duke, who went over to the emperor, after long negotiations, in 1523. His estates were confiscated. He fought against the French in Italy, notably at the battle of Pavia (1525), and was killed in an attack on Rome, which was sacked by his unpaid, mutinous troops.

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After Pavia he was bound as an enemy of François which led to the confiscation of his land and the claim of the title of "Duke of Bourbon" by François all future kings of France.

I mean to rub in the power of the Bourbons and how it should be implemented in the game.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Query

Okay, knowing that I am not going to do the considerable work of splitting Spain into Castile and Aragon, how many of you would be ready to kill me or completely refuse to play a 1492 scenario in which a duchy of Bourbonnais, possibly comprising the provinces of Limoges, Auvergne, and Cévennes, allied and vassal to France with a vassalage set to begin around 1505 or so (to prevent immediate diplo-annexation?

Provinces suggested are based on the map provided by Fate and a very rough fit of the Duchy of Bourbon and lands in central France that accrued to the crown with the accession of Henri IV.

And if the reason for killing fury or refusal was based on this being a weird construction of Bourbon, exactly which provinces would you suggest instead

 

[Prince Eugene]

Re: Query

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Okay, knowing that I am not going to do the considerable work of splitting Spain into Castile and Aragon, how many of you would be ready to kill me or completely refuse to play a 1492 scenario in which a duchy of Bourbonnais, possibly comprising the provinces of Limoges, Auvergne, and Cévennes, allied and vassal to France with a vassalage set to begin around 1505 or so (to prevent immediate diplo-annexation?

Provinces suggested are based on the map provided by Fate and a very rough fit of the Duchy of Bourbon and lands in central France that accrued to the crown with the accession of Henri IV.

And if the reason for killing fury or refusal was based on this being a weird construction of Bourbon, exactly which provinces would you suggest instead

You need to consider it by rate of power. While a lot of those other states did exist, they were all just mere puppets to the king of France and shouldn't really be in the game. The only three nations within france that had even close to considerable power on the intercontinental scale or for that matter even on a local scale were the Duchies of Brittany and Bourbon.

 

[Eochaid]

Peter, I'll put a link to this thread in the French forum. That way you'll get in touch with some people that will be delighted to help you with this.

 

[Prince Eugene]

Originally posted by Eochaid
Peter, I'll put a link to this thread in the French forum. That way you'll get in touch with some people that will be delighted to help you with this.

uhm.. they can also help us make France even more powerful...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Eochaid
Peter, I'll put a link to this thread in the French forum. That way you'll get in touch with some people that will be delighted to help you with this.

Thank you

The worst they can do is say that I am insane, and I am quite used to that.

 

[JohnMK]

Which changes are you considering, Peter?