France and HRE in Iberia and North Africa

[Comradebot]

I'm trying to remember the last time I played a game that didn't result in these two ultimately dominating in Iberia and North Africa... heck, right now the HRE is starting to make a press towards freakin' Mali. I'm all for this kind of thing happening sometimes, but crikey these two have a bad habit of consistently dominating the western Muslims.

 

[Sian]

In my last game France only got a foothold in Iberia after they won a solid-big Castille/Nevarra in a marriage ... and promptly lost it to cadet lines hailing from the Iberian Queen's two aunts

 

[Gunnarr]

In my games I am very frustrated because the HRE keeps taking Africa (and their capital is now in the middle of the sahara...)

I wish they would just leave them alone!

 

[Malebranche]

Once muslims have Barcelona they attack. Playing an iberian christian shouldn't be a race to conquer the muslims vs HRE.

 

[Ruwaard]

If you take the HRE and France as examples of a phenomenon, then I can agree, however England or Poland in Iberia or North Africa would be just as a wrong. Furthermore there are situations, which would make it possible (and within the game plausible); for instance if France, which borders Aragon, inherits or conquers Aragon and slowly the rest of Iberia, then they should be able to cross to North Africa. A HRE, which controls the kingdom of Sicily should have the possibility to expand to North Africa too. In both cases North Africa should be harder, but IMHO this isn't less plausible than the Byzantine Empire, which manages to restore the entire Roman Empire (IMHO is much less plausible).

 

[Hootieleece]

I just took over the HRE......it had already blobbed to Half of Iberia and Mali.......I will grant independence once the Kingdom of Galicia and any others near there that joins a independence faction and the press their decision.in the mean time i'm trying to straighten out the Dejure vassal mess made by AI.

I was hoping that factions would keep the HRE from Holy warring everywhere, but no.If you win against big revolt big relation boost....which means its time to fight a foreign war.

 

[nyah]

There are countless other threads about how the muslims are overpowered and dominate Iberia, and often France. So which is it?

 

[Hootieleece]

Actually it is all perfectlly balanced except for the MONGOLS now........Every group has its OP CB. The problem with muslims is that the Christians in iberia are too weak....Duchy size Kingdoms and the fact you can't join against Invasion CB.France falls because of infighting among rebels being steamrolled by Moslems with invasion CB.

The reason France and HRE are in Iberia is that if they are stable,They pick a foreign war and Holy War in Iberia against moslems is Closest and easiest.

The Fatimids are still too stable.....but now the MONGOLS crush them..........

I just wish you didn't have to wait for a faction to press for independence to grant it.(i wish you could do it with prestige hit and vassal malus like destroy titles.)

 

[Lwantssugar]

Actually it is all perfectlly balanced except for the MONGOLS now........Every group has its OP CB. The problem with muslims is that the Christians in iberia are too weak....Duchy size Kingdoms and the fact you can't join against Invasion CB.France falls because of infighting among rebels being steamrolled by Moslems with invasion CB.

The reason France and HRE are in Iberia is that if they are stable,They pick a foreign war and Holy War in Iberia against moslems is Closest and easiest.

The Fatimids are still too stable.....but now the MONGOLS crush them..........

I just wish you didn't have to wait for a faction to press for independence to grant it.(i wish you could do it with prestige hit and vassal malus like destroy titles.)

Mongols seem to be buffed now, before they'd make strong gains against the Rurikovitch's and the Seljuks and then implode shortly after conversion. Now the Ilkhanate owns all of de jure parts of the Persian Empire, the Arabian peninsula and everything south of Egypt.
The Golden Horde on the other hand has conquered all of Russia, Scandinavia with the exception of Sweden, Poland and Bohemia. And since the HRE is a giant mess right now I assume Germany is next on the chopping block

 

[Heartsbane]

There are countless other threads about how the muslims are overpowered and dominate Iberia, and often France. So which is it?

People tend to exaggerate when it comes to the Muslims and Iberia. While it's certainly hard to defend against a Fatimid Jihad for Andalusia or what have you (which I have only seen happen once in game and it happened to me as France ) but in most of the games I have played it is the Dhunmunids (SP?) who expand into Barcelona, Aragon, and possibly into France and the Abbadids who end up taking the rest of Iberia from the Christians (if I`m not playing an Iberian faction or actively intervening in Iberian poltiics that is). France always seems to take large chunks of Iberia if I don`t take it for myself and I have seen the HRE expand into Barcelona though it is a bit rarer in my games. It makes sense though as those Iberian Kingdoms that get swallowed up Muslim Holy Wars are largely useless due to different culture, religion, and recently conquered penalties, and once Barcelona and Aragon are taken the Muslims have a border with the much more powerful France who generally don`t have many other avenues of expansion. Obviously it is hard to come up with a definitive scenario as there are a lot of variables in each game but I do see the bigger Western powers expand into Iberia more often than not by mid-game.

 

[telegraph]

try to play as someone in that theatre and actually be successful there. In my previous game I started as Duke of Brittany and had to work hard to keep normans(who constantly tried to claim my lands), norwegians(who won England) and french at bay. I won the crusade for Andalusia, and had to keep muslims at bay as well.

Through the conspiracy, marriages and outright war I made my kin to be :
King of France,
King Of Navarra, Galicia, Castille
Duke of Portucale,
Duke of York,
Duke of Moray,

France got half of Aragon, and I inherited south of England (Bedford, Norfolk, Oxford, Somerset and one other duchy)

Other then that everyone is more or less in their own borders.(well, Norway collapsed and is now a bunch of independent duchies, while king of Norway owns something around archangelsk :-/ and also Poland got conquered by Hungary)

What I am trying to say here is that historical reconquista in Spain was more a miracle(political, diplomatical and military) then an inevitable event.
And if the rightful Jimena cannot set iberia to rights - why should french not intervene? why should not germans get a few early colonies in afrika?

 

[Comradebot]

There are countless other threads about how the muslims are overpowered and dominate Iberia, and often France. So which is it?

The only overpowered Muslims (and often the ones mentioned in Iberia...) are the Fatimids. It isn't a "Muslim" problem, its a blob problem. There is no middle grounds, smaller states do not survive. France blobs, HRE blobs, Fatimids blob, ERE blobs... I've yet to see any kind of game where the expansion of any of the big boys at the start is consistently limited and instead its smaller states like Galicia or the Sultanate of Africa that becomes the prominent force in an area. The big fish eat the little fish, and France just keeps on swimming...

Ideally, the willingness of the HRE or France or the Fatimids to rule some chunk of land far removed from their own borders/historical desires would be curbed. The AI and the player both should be encouraged to restore a fallen or create a new kingdom in certain circumstances rather than just add to their own blob. If France actually takes apart de jure Maurentania, I'd like to see them try to create a new, christian kingdom their rather than just go "LOL, now part of Africa will be de jure France!!!" That, and while factions have helped, the rich tend to still get richer... The only thing usually stopping one of the four or so "mega-blobs" from blobbing into somewhere is if one of the other blobs gets there first. If the HRE isn't in North Africa, its because France got there first. If the French aren't all over Iberia, its usually only because the Fatimids got there first. Its very (too) rare for the reason the HRE didn't blob over Africa is because the Sultanate of Africa managed to hold their ground.

 

[whosthebestcop]

The 1066 start often provides strange occurrences is Iberia. I never start before 1076 mostly start in the 1090's.

The reason why France and HRE can move into Iberia and North Africa is if a whole bunch of independent Muslims are in control. They will wipe them out. Especially if France is stable. France and HRE can bring as many troops as Persia usually.

Later starts the Muslims are slightly more united as well as Catholic Iberia being more united so they (France and HRE) don't always end up there.

 

[Velger]

Maybe the mallus for not being the de jure liege should be increased significantly. Has anyone tried modding that? With the new faction mechanic (and its' tendency to spawn free soldiers..), perhaps that would considerably increase the difficulty of holding onto non-de jure lands long enough for it to drift.

 

[kraussda]

Maybe the mallus for not being the de jure liege should be increased significantly. Has anyone tried modding that? With the new faction mechanic (and its' tendency to spawn free soldiers..), perhaps that would considerably increase the difficulty of holding onto non-de jure lands long enough for it to drift.

I think I'm gonna do that and test an observe game right now. I'll post the results

 

[Comradebot]

I've always wanted to see a system where you'd be encouraged into giving lands outside your culture rulers of that culture... so then you'd have a representative of a minority population in your realm, but it'd prevent the peasants from overrunning the dang place. On the flip side, you'd now have to work harder than normal to keep their liege lords happy or face them rebelling to try and get their people free of your foreign tyranny.

Would be a fun way to help represent the fact that such populations and rulers were the norm in many parts of real life, like Bulgarians and Armenians in the ERE and Czechs and Italians in the HRE.

 

[Ruwaard]

Maybe the mallus for not being the de jure liege should be increased significantly. Has anyone tried modding that? With the new faction mechanic (and its' tendency to spawn free soldiers..), perhaps that would considerably increase the difficulty of holding onto non-de jure lands long enough for it to drift.

In principle a great idea, until the de jure drift you also mentioned; maybe that system needs to depend on more variables too, like a slower drift (drift penalty) for a duchy with a different culture, non adjacent duchies etc.

@ Comradebot: Italy is more complex and sometimes there were some difficulties with Bohemia too. The latter however (even as a duchy and definitely once it was a kingdom) had a large degree of autonomy and its ruler played his part in Imperial politics.
Non Czech rulers like the Luxembourgs, quite quickly became Bohemian and they may have had more issues ruling the population, especially the nobility, though. OTOH the Premyslid were hindered in their ambitions in the Empire for not being 'German' (broader than today, basically all Germanic subjects/nobles of the HRE).

All in all there were some issues, but at the same time Bohemia and its ruler was very much a part of the HRE too, so IMHO they should get a malus and bonus. It IMHO wasn't a foreign tyranny, but different 'nationalities' did give some issues.

Other kingdoms, which aren't a de jure part of that empire, like the ERE and HRE, should definitely get a smaller bonus, but with a similar malus. To stick to the example Poland or Hungary should be far more instable as vassal kingdoms of the HRE than Bohemia.

 

[Gqarz]

I have seen games where Iberia is united by the ai and expands against the moslems. It just isn't common. I've also seen Galicia expand accross Northwest Africa and into southern France. What kills the Iberians is two things: gavelkind succession and the moslem invasion CB.

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

Once muslims have Barcelona they attack. Playing an iberian christian shouldn't be a race to conquer the muslims vs HRE.

If Barcelona fell, I think the HRE should attack. It's too close to them. They should definitely defend France or Italy.

 

[kraussda]

So I recently modded my game such that all non de-jure vassals have a -30 opinion malus w/ their liege. I set up an observer game then let it run while I was at work. I only watched the first 45 minutes or so. Already noticed some interesting things.
1) the doge of pisa successfully revolted for control of the HRE, then VERY quickly lost it to a feudal lord. This gave the HRE gavelkind succession, making it much less stable for the rest of the game.
2) Muslim powers, in particular the Fatimids, can weather a -30 opinion with no problem. They launched a successful invasion of Greece in the 1180's while not having a single vassal below 0 opinion.
3) While I didn't see all of it, Iberia and North Africa played out EXACTLY as they tend to in most of my games: Iberian Christians lose within 100 years and are then crushed beneath the HRE and France. A reformed Castille under a Salian now controls most of Iberia and North Africa.
4) Tunis was conquered by some particularly ambitious Venetians
5) The Byzantine Empire was utterly crushed
6) Much of the Middle East and the Steppe are controlled by mongols (Shia and Orthodox respectively).
7) However, at the end of the day, Egypt, France, and the HRE control little outside of their de-jure land

I'm planning on running another game overnight with the opinion malus doubled. I'll let you know how it goes!

Additionally, if anyone would like the code I wrote to create the malus I will post it. It's very sloppy code but it gets the job done.