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Chlodio

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Many empires didn't fall as a result of an open rebellion or disastrous civil war, but gradually ceased to be a united state as the central authority faded away and the governors became de facto independent. I don't think any Paradox game even tries to model this, but I believe that Imperator is in a unique position to depict it in some way.

I'm talking about the governors. The game gives everyone this system where you can appoint anyone and remove any time without a reason (unless disloyal). And when they become disloyal they just start a civil war to depose you.

Let's compare this to the brilliant Roman administrative system. The post of governors was restricted to the former high officials (proconsuls and propraetors), served fixed time. This system secured loyalty to Rome, made them unlikely to rebel or defect to the enemy, and prevented them from concentrating power within the province.

Achaemenid satraps served for life and their post was hereditary. So, naturally, they would concentrate powerbase, but the system countered this by granting a high degree of autonomy, which made them less likely to revolt, but there were still many revolts. Furthermore, their loyalties were questionable, and were eager to defect to the strongest if they were allowed to keep their position; that is to say that if the satraps would have fought for the last fort, Alexander wouldn't ever be able to occupy all of Anatolia.

Therefore the disloyal governors shouldn't always try to overthrow the state but aim for a more realistic goal of making the province theirs. I believe this could be accomplished by giving every province an autonomy level from 1 to 5. Which would determine how much they contribute, can they be removed, is the position hereditary, etc. Naturally, the governors would be more loyal the higher the autonomy level is. So, increasing autonomy would be postponed civil wars at the cost of weakening the empire. At level 5, the governor would no longer contribute anything to the state. If you don't grant them autonomy, they will still start a civil war and seek to overthrow the state.
 
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Paghalay

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I'd actually love to see a centralisation mechanic, where if power is centralised for too long, governors and pops in the none capital region become increasingly disloyal due to having less power than they feel they deserve, and a feeling that the nation only concentrates and cares about the capital and nowhere else and therefore may try and start a civil war.
However with centralisation too low for too long, governors may try to break free from the empire all together and seek independence (or even be open to bribery from another nation and make the governor attempt to join that nation instead).

The more centralised the nation, the greater things like tax income is and population migration to the capital region is, and then as a balance, if the nation is more decentralised you could have something like grater levy sizes due to governors having an interest in increasing their military size, or reduced army upkeep as the burden of paying would fall more on the governor over the central state.
All this along with what you've suggested would make me rather happy with the internal politics of the nation, at least for the most part.
 
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IsaacCAT

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There is a centralization mechanic for tribes.

For republics and monarchies the risk for revolts/civil wars comes from power base of Characters. Either they command troops or govern regions that increases their power base and get disloyal.

The political strife is based on power and not about autonomy. I like this way better as it is more true to real mechanics for revolutions than centralization vs autonomy. Powerful characters will want to revolt. Alas, the way it is implemented now it is too easy to bypass serious problems by bribing/befriending the disloyal character.

I have argumented in my suggestion the Godfather Simulator that this type of interactions shouldn’t be possible for the nation. Instead, granting autonomy to a disloyal governor will keep alive the political struggle for power base while the nation will have to sacrifice something to avoid a revolt/civil war.

Another thing that I like is the chance of wars of independence. These disloyal governors with high power base, instead of a civil war, they could use the POPs unhappiness to try a war for independence of their region. For example, being able to raise legions/levies from non integrated cultures.
 
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nikkythegreat

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I dont mind seeing a lot of AI blobs late game. Since conquering a lot of small states is such a hassle.

Plus big AI blobs would be the only ones giving a bit of a challenge against me.
 

Chlodio

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Autonomy levels could be something like:
LVTax/manpowerCan be reassigned?Is heraldic yes?Governor loyalty
1100%immediatelyno+0%
275%after 5 yearsno+12.5%
350%neverno+25%
425%neveryes+37.5%
50%neveryes+50%
 
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Chlodio

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I dont mind seeing a lot of AI blobs late game. Since conquering a lot of small states is such a hassle.

Plus big AI blobs would be the only ones giving a bit of a challenge against me.
But this wouldn't be for that, I just think it would be an interesting empire management mechanic.
 
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IsaacCAT

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Autonomy levels could be something like:
LVTax/manpowerCan be reassigned?Is heraldic yes?Governor loyalty
1100%immediatelyno+0%
275%after 5 yearsno+12.5%
350%neverno+25%
425%neveryes+37.5%
50%neveryes+50%

At the same time, more autonomy shall give more power base to the governor
 
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Bovrick

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I do also agree that this time period would be a great testing ground for something I'd like to see in GS games: a more gradiated system between Subjects, Sovereign States and Autonomous Regions. Allowing 'foreign' states limited rights to enforce internal political changes could allow an intermediate position between loyal governorship and subject state. I have previously posted some things that I think should be more mutable when looking at interstate relations.


Governors having the option to pursue rights (for example, to select their successor as hereditary) while the overlord still has some rights over the inner workings of their governorship would allow for more fragmentation, and a pseudo-state ready to break out if the centre collapses.
 
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cristofolmc

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Autonomy levels could be something like:
LVTax/manpowerCan be reassigned?Is heraldic yes?Governor loyalty
1100%immediatelyno+0%
275%after 5 yearsno+12.5%
350%neverno+25%
425%neveryes+37.5%
50%neveryes+50%

Love that. I'ts missing pop happiness and tax and commerce income perhaps. I think autonomy should affect those too. More autonomy means happier pops but also less taxes and commerce income, which the governors and pops get to keep.
 
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IsaacCAT

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Love that. I'ts missing pop happiness and tax and commerce income perhaps. I think autonomy should affect those too. More autonomy means happier pops but also less taxes and commerce income, which the governors and pops get to keep.
Not sure about that, in ancient times POP's were changing one tyrant for another.
 
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antrachton

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I think that is a great idea, can be built on as well and evolve into even a greater one.
And I think there might be such mechanics once they deal with subjects - they wanted to create their dependence more "fluid" as far as i remember, but had to postpone the project due to complexity.
All those options above would make this game fantastically interesting - I'd love modifiers be available too to make our own changes and adjustments to those systems.
If they also added more interactions for characters (i think that can be modded now anyway) that would be awsome game with all those possibilities.
 

Battlex

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Many empires didn't fall as a result of an open rebellion or disastrous civil war, but gradually ceased to be a united state as the central authority faded away and the governors became de facto independent. I don't think any Paradox game even tries to model this, but I believe that Imperator is in a unique position to depict it in some way.

I'm talking about the governors. The game gives everyone this system where you can appoint anyone and remove any time without a reason (unless disloyal). And when they become disloyal they just start a civil war to depose you.

Let's compare this to the brilliant Roman administrative system. The post of governors was restricted to the former high officials (proconsuls and propraetors), served fixed time. This system secured loyalty to Rome, made them unlikely to rebel or defect to the enemy, and prevented them from concentrating power within the province.

Achaemenid satraps served for life and their post was hereditary. So, naturally, they would concentrate powerbase, but the system countered this by granting a high degree of autonomy, which made them less likely to revolt, but there were still many revolts. Furthermore, their loyalties were questionable, and were eager to defect to the strongest if they were allowed to keep their position; that is to say that if the satraps would have fought for the last fort, Alexander wouldn't ever be able to occupy all of Anatolia.

Therefore the disloyal governors shouldn't always try to overthrow the state but aim for a more realistic goal of making the province theirs. I believe this could be accomplished by giving every province an autonomy level from 1 to 5. Which would determine how much they contribute, can they be removed, is the position hereditary, etc. Naturally, the governors would be more loyal the higher the autonomy level is. So, increasing autonomy would be postponed civil wars at the cost of weakening the empire. At level 5, the governor would no longer contribute anything to the state. If you don't grant them autonomy, they will still start a civil war and seek to overthrow the state.
This is what the devs planned for either Marius or the religious update, but it got shelved as far harder than it seemed
 

Rabid

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This is what the devs planned for either Marius or the religious update, but it got shelved as far harder than it seemed
I guess that they realised that a decent subjects overhaul would mean looking at governors as well and suddenly that one small self contained feature revamp has spread to encompass a large chunk of the core gameplay. And then they wanted to sort out the warfare side of things first so it got pushed further than 2.0.