Fraction system - why it is not supposed to work - or can you disprove?

[unmerged(19579)]

Watch this picture:

This Ally Fraction is way of... Its presenting: "The World vs. Germany (and rest of CEZ)". It is crap imo. Theres no way to beat this ally spam with Intelligence, i tried it several times.

But whats most problematic: The Countrys are supposed to have a drift towards one of the fractions, thats ok. With al little bit of influence you can let them drift towards you. BUT: As Germany you are supposed to make a little war... or a greater one, depends. With every war declared, your Threat rises. With the threat rising, any drift towards you will be IMPOSSIBLE. After you have declared two or three wars, there is no way to even get Italy or Japan to drift towards Axis (Its -20 drift for me now WITH influence). No way of Italy beeing astonished by yuor success of Blitzkrieg.

Shouldnt drift been influenced by your Success on making wars?

So again: Declaring two or more wars leaves you NO CHANCE to get a country drift towards axis.

Any disprove on this?

 

[RoboCzar]

This isn't HoI 2 where alliances were basically predetermined and you didn't have to do any diplomacy or espionage.

In HoI 3 you need an active propaganda campaign to keep nations from drifting to your enemies. See the propaganda thread in this forum.

 

[unmerged(19579)]

Actually i did that. Its not a matter of propaganda. The problem is what i tried to figure out: Even WITH a good propagande system there is NO WAY to get the fractions working if declaring war raises your threat to EVERYONE. That actually means: Declare two or thre wars and you cant in any way get even one fraction member because your threat from declaring war cant be countered with intelligence or diplomacy.

 

[Will Lucky]

I used active propaganda and was able to get nations such as Nat Spain and Argentina into Axis. The problem is that when you DOW Poland, Denmark/Norway, and then the Low Countries (If you want the historical route) your propaganda campaign collapses and you get that by 1940/41.

 

[unmerged(19579)]

That is exactly what i am saying. You begin war = you will never ever be able to pull a country into the Axis... EVERY SINGLE NATION ON EARTH will be your enemy over time... I doubt that is a) historical b) nice gameplay. Italy joined the Axis after the outstanding german victory in France, capturing Paris. And so did other nations to get their part of the Cake...
Thats not possible in HoI3 because warmongering leaves you no choice but killing all nations, not beeing able to ally with them.

 

[DuvelDuvel]

Well who cares about most of those midgets, with italy and spain your are powerful enough to clear europe of opposition.

Only real thing you want to avoid at ALL costs is getting the USA to come over and play.

I used active propaganda too, and the only new ones in the allied camp are Poland and South Africa. (by 1939)
Just get everyone you want with you into the axis before you go nuts. Once inside the axis faction they are trapt

Anyone outside the axis faction at the beginning of poland is just prey.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

Fo rone, it's faction, not fraction. We're talking idealogies and not math here...

Anyways, aside from that there are a few problems here in the game still.

For one, nations such as China develop massive amounts of threat as they war it out with Japan. These wars cause neutral nations in America and Europe (such as the USA, Switzerland, and Ireland) to immeadiately feel threatened and be able to join a faction.

Unfortunately until the amount of threat needed for a neutral nation to join a faction is raised (which should be easily modded by the way), your job in life is to glue your eyes to the diplomacy screen and watch as threat levels begin to rise.

Once any nation gets a total threat of 50 or more, you better hope that no one is drifting towards the Allies, because this is the crucial threshold at which nations will start hopping the fence and joining up.

Remember, the problem with threat is that its a general value, once ANY nation reaches that threat level, be it USA, China, Germany, UK, Soviet Union, etc. There's nothing stopping any nation from joining a faction except for its drift.

 

[unmerged(112206)]

You should make some alliances before warmongering

 

[unmerged(148761)]

You're right of course. Historically, democratic nations were the most isolationist and the most in favor of appeasement during this period. Of the historical allied countries, nearly all of them only joined the allies after they were attacked or invaded. The only country that joined before they were attacked was poland (although Chekoslovakia tried and was rejected).

That said, this has been really beaten to death on the forums and I have faith that the PI people know that it's a problem. I have my fingers crossed for 1.2.

 

[Jos de trol]

maybe a simple remedy: fascist minded regimes should drift towards warmongering fascist regimes, or at least not drift away from them...

 

[Tyson_48]

Actually i did that. Its not a matter of propaganda. The problem is what i tried to figure out: Even WITH a good propagande system there is NO WAY to get the fractions working if declaring war raises your threat to EVERYONE. That actually means: Declare two or thre wars and you cant in any way get even one fraction member because your threat from declaring war cant be countered with intelligence or diplomacy.

Why you have to declare 2 or 3 wars?
The war against Poland + Allies comes with the decision.

Then you are already in war against France so no need to declare the war again.

The rest till Barbarossa you have to wait for Italy acts on Balkan and calls you in.


There is really no problem to get Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria in the Axis after the Fall of France.
Romania comes after the Bessarabia event.



So what do you mean exactly?
Of course if you declare one war after another in 37/38 or intervent activ in Spain...you have a problem...but that is logical!

 

[Will Lucky]

there is NO WAY to get the fractions working if declaring war raises your threat to EVERYONE.

I think this is the answer right here,

If I declare war on Belgium I really don't expect the USA to really think immediately afterwards it's going to be invaded lets join the Allies to protect us.

The US is on a difference Continent, it's isolationist and it doesn't want to get involved in a European War. The threat level should really affect them.

 

[AllThat4Nothing]

can a mod please change "fraction" to "faction?" it's ruining my entire day...

 

[Kiraly]

Italy joined the Axis after the outstanding german victory in France, capturing Paris. And so did other nations to get their part of the Cake...

That´s not entirely acurate.
Italy signed a pact with Germany (foolishly) in May ´39, unaware that Germany was about to start a war later that year. They weren´t even informed before the official declaration of war. Italy just waited that long to declare war on France (but still some days before the final german victory over France), cause they couldn´t imagine it could be successfull. Even then the resistance was huge in the Fascist council, but Musso was too sharp on getting at least some scraps from France and wanted to regain the senior status among fascist countries.

 

[Kuciwalker]

I used active propaganda and was able to get nations such as Nat Spain and Argentina into Axis. The problem is that when you DOW Poland, Denmark/Norway, and then the Low Countries (If you want the historical route) your propaganda campaign collapses and you get that by 1940/41.

This sounds pretty reasonable...

 

[unmerged(45977)]

This sounds pretty reasonable...

No, it doesn't. Because the entire world will be against you, even countries that were friendly towards Germany in that period.

There should be some modifier that makes fascist countries drift towards Germany even though Germany just owned the crap out of Europe.-

 

[Lauri]

You'll have to invite your potential friends into your faction before you go on a killing spree...
If you take the Danzig or War decidion, you'll declare a limited war on Poland, thus they won't join... They won't join until you call upon them...
I was at war with the Allies, and were allied with Hungary, Italy, and Nat. Spain, yet they weren't fighting.. When italy dow'ed Greece, they came along as well.. Hungary I called upon 'cause they weren't in any potential dangerous position... Then after France fell, I asked Nat. Spain to join the war, and they got Gibraltar..
Since Japan was doing so horrible in China, I didn't want to bring them along...

Still, there's no way for me to get Bulgaria or Romania along the Axis now... They're running towards the Allies, even though we're about equal in threat... Ah, yeah, I am closer to them..

So yeah, some adjustments could really be needed, and the neutrality I think should really count, cause 100% Neutral countries should, well.. stay neutral.. or decrease it's neutrality, then join an alliance..

 

[Greiffenstein]

The whole drifting problem gets even worse when you manage to get Italy and Japan into the Axis because their threat towards every country will be added.

I think the threat problem also influences the fact that Italy tends to conquer France while most French units wait at the German border. Although Italy is invading southern France, Germany is still considered to be the biggest threat that has to be dealt with. Everything else seems to be of minor priority. I could observe the same absurdity with Japan in Manchukuo. After capturing Shanxi it withdrew all its troops to setup a defensive line against SU although it was still in war with the rest of China.

 

[byzantium43]

You're right of course. Historically, democratic nations were the most isolationist and the most in favor of appeasement during this period. 1.2.

Yeah, and the Soviets where just itching to go to war with Germany.
Pretty much every government was in favor of appeasement or didn't care.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

Yeah, and the Soviets where just itching to go to war with Germany.
Pretty much every government was in favor of appeasement or didn't care.

Well Stalin may have been isolationist, but he definately wasn't a fan of appeasement, since he wasn't getting a piece of the pie himself.

Threat levels should be dramatically lower if you do no share a border or a continent with the threatening nation, and a nation with a neutrality rating of 100 should require minimum of 70 threat to join an alliance or have to be attacked first. IMHO