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Firehound15

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I require more information before casting a vote here. What language would the literacy test be in? What defines a 'Civilised Native'? Until these fundamental questions have been answered, I can not vote on this motion.

The language of the test would be dependent upon what legislation will be passed. If the proposal to make Spanish and English co-official languages were to pass, the test would be done in whichever language is better spoken by the voter. Should we not have an official language, the test would simply be in whatever language is spoken by the local people, so if it's in a town with a high population of Californios, the test would be given in Spanish.

As for "civilized natives," I broadly define a civilized native as any native who is a citizen of California and who speaks with fluency either English or Spanish.


While I support this motion, it must be asked, what is meant by 'autonomous territories', which seems to give power to entities outside the federal governmnet. A Unitarian form of government has already been decided for this nation, though against my personal beliefs. I can not in good conscience vote in favour of a motion that would violate the previously established decision of this convention. If I am mistaken in my understanding of this motion, then I am willing to listen to a clearer explanation.

This would not violate the unitarian nature of the government for the same reasons that local police do not violate a unitarian government. Under this, the Eastern Territories, divided how the legislature sees fit, would have power to organize a local police and pass basic local ordinances. No territory would have the power to override National laws, but for any issue not covered by the central government of importance, the territories would have the power to establish their own regulations, if it were important to the people of those regions. Now, this wouldn't be a permanent solution, no, it would only be until the Eastern Territories are linked to the coast through either a railroad or some kind of well-groomed trail.
 

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An open letter to the Constitutional Convention

To the most respected members of the Congressional Convention:

I have refrained from taking part or interfering in any of the past proceedings, as I, being a naval officer, thought it best to remain at my post. The role of the military, I have always believed, should be to protect, advise, and serve a civilian government, to remain at their post no matter the political landscape of the current government, and to abstain from the politicking that makes up such a landscape. In this way, as long as I remain at my post, I will refuse any and all party allegiances, and ask all like-minded officers to do so as well.

However, as a man of an egalitarian ideology, I have found it difficult to refrain from adding my voice to the proceedings, and, remembering the events that drove my dear uncle the Marquis de Lafayette to exile, I thought it best to publish my ideas in writing, to be discussed by the assembly as they so choose. In doing so, I propose the following Bill of Rights to be enshrined in the constitution, in a similar fashion to that of the United States of America. I ask that the assembly take all necessary discussion on this matter, for this is a moment of great import for our shared nation.

1. The National Government shall not infringe upon a citizen's right to worship, nor shall he raise one form of worship above the other. Furthermore, he shall protect the citizen's right to worship, including that of religious minorities, and will refrain from persecuting said minorities. The National Government shall also endeavor to separate any established church from the state, and prevent religious interference with that of the state. In addition, the National Government shall protect and encourage all freedom of the press, speech, and peaceful assembly, as well as a citizen's right to petition his government for redress.

2. The National Government shall not infringe upon a citizen's right to privacy. In doing so, the National Government refrains from performing illegal espionage upon her own citizen's, from illegal and unwarranted search and seizure, and from the illegal and unnecessary quartering of troops in times of peace without the owner's consent.

3. The National Government shall not infringe upon a citizen's right to property without due compensation, excepting in cases within which illegal actions have taken place using said property. In such cases, the property shall be considered evidence of a felony, however seizure must be considered temporary, to be returned in cases where the citizen is deemed innocent.

4. The National Government shall not interfere in the jurisdiction of a free and independent judiciary, by way of bill of attainder or of illegal pardon. The National Government shall not hold any man accountable for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, except on indictment of a Grand Jury by his peers, nor shall any person be forcibly made or compelled to bear witness against themselves, nor shall a person be made to account for the same crime after having once been declared innocent, excepting cases of appeal.

5. All men shall have a right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial judge of the Government and a jury made up of his peers from the district in which the crime took place. He shall be informed of the nature and causes of accusations against him, and shall be given all legal assistance for his defense. Included in this legal assistance is a reading of all rights granted to him by the National Government and Judiciary.

6. No punishment deemed cruel or unusual shall be inflicted towards the convicted. The Judiciary shall refrain from imposing excessive bail or fines upon the convicted.

7. The governments of the cities and municipalities of the nation retain the right of a well-armed and regulated citizen's guard, to provide for the general welfare, ensure inner stability, and as protection against both foreign and native threats to the nation.

8. The rights described in the Constitution shall not disparage or deny other rights guaranteed and retained by the people, nor will it disparage or deny any rights granted to the municipalities.​

I shall await an answer by the National Government to my proposed amendments, and will remain delighted by the answer, no matter the outcome.

-Dutifully yours,

Commodore Pierre du Motier

I support this proposal on behalf of the Commodore.
 

Firehound15

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I also motion to organise all lands east of the Sierra Nevada and north of the Colorado River (and north of the 36 parallel between these two features) as a territory of California, and that this territory be granted autonomy until it is fully integrated into the rest of the nation through the means of infrastructure, similar to Mr. Menzies proposal for the Eastern Territories.

I second this motion.
 

aedan777

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"On the subject of slavery, I must first say that technically speaking any slaves in the nation are technically illegal, since slavery was banned by the Mexican government, and there has been no constitution since independence. However the very nature of declaring independence is also technically speaking illegal, so any such argument against slavery is a moot point. On the issue itself the fundamental argument seems to be whether the slaves are recognized as people or property. I find this distinction to be absurd. No human being can be considered property, and any money that changes hands in the 'purchase' of human beings is immoral money, and the government can hardly be expected to compensate such dealings. Thankfully, there is no one here, or anywhere else in the civilized world for that matter, who wants to enslave people. The enslaved are Negros, and thus not humans like anyone in this room, and there is nothing immoral about them being considered property. Indeed, to treat them as property is preferable to letting them live on their own in ignorance and savagery. The institution of slavery is a blessing upon the less civilized races, not an immoral burden. Thus there is no moral grounds for abolishing slavery. However the number of slaves in this nation is small, and transporting any more to this nation would require great treks across the desert and mountains, improper territory to transport slaves over, where many will inevitably die, which would benefit no one.

Thus I propose a compromise. No more slaves may be imported into the nation of California, but slavery will not be outlawed. This should placate the abolitionists by limiting slavery, but it would take away no one's property. I believe this is a fair middle ground between the positions, much preferable to conflict over the matter."
 

Andre Massena

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Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people: Aye

Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion: Aye

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term: Aye

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all White, Hispanic and Civilised Native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the age of twenty: Aye

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastern Territories as autonomous territories. If the motion is rejected, I call upon the house to offer an alternative for the organisation of the Eastern territories: Aye

Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press and, property, and other such rights: Aye

Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trial of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights: Aye

Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish: Nay

Mr. Kingston's anti-slavery proposal: Nay, with all my soul

-Colton Burpo
Delegate from Los Angeles
 

Scrapknight

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I vote in favor of Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people.

I vote in favor of Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion.

I vote in favor Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term.

I vote in favor of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all White, Hispanic and Civilised Native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the age of twenty.

I vote against Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastern Territories as autonomous territories.

I vote in favor of Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press and, property, and other such rights.

I vote in favor of Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trial of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights.

I vote in favor of Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish.

I vote in favor of Mr. Kingston's slavery proposal.

- Matthew James O'Brien, Delegate for San Francisco
 

Nodscouterr

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Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people: Aye

Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion: Nay

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term: Aye

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all White, Hispanic and Civilised Native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the age of twenty: Nay

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastern Territories as autonomous territories. If the motion is rejected, I call upon the house to offer an alternative for the organisation of the Eastern territories: Nay

Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press and, property, and other such rights: Aye

Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trial of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights: Aye

Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish: Aye

Mr. Kingston's anti-slavery proposal: Nay, it would be preposterous to do such.

- Doctor César Antonio Castañón
Delegate for the Californian Imperial Party
 

TJDS

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I vote in favor of Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people
I vote in favor of Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion
I vote in favor of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term

I vote against of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all white, hispanic and civilised native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the ago of twenty
I vote against Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastren Territories as autonomous territories
I vote in favor of Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarentee of the freedom of speech, religion, press, property and other such rights
I vote in favor of Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trail of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights
I vote against Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish
I vote against Mr. Kingston's slavery proposal
 

XVG

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Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people. If the motion is rejected, then Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected by the legislature shall be automatically adopted: No

The Chief Magistrate should be elected by the Senate.

Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion: No

I believe the Christian – especially Catholic religion needs to be the source of moral codes for our Republic.

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term. If the motion is rejected, I call upon the house to offer an alternative term span and limit: Yes

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all White, Hispanic and Civilised Native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the age of twenty. If the motion is rejected, I call upon the house to offer an alternative suffrage qualification: Yes

I must however present my fiercest disapproval of the term “Hispanic”. Thus I would like to put forward a motion making end of the use of this term. All Spanish-speaking Californios are White, and should be treated as such. I must say that the term is very insulting to my person and other gentlemen sharing my ancestry.

Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastern Territories as autonomous territories. If the motion is rejected, I call upon the house to offer an alternative for the organisation of the Eastern territories: No

Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press and, property, and other such rights: Yes

Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trial of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights: Yes

Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish: Yes. I also support the amendment presented.

Mr. Kingston’s Anti-Slavery Motion: Yes

The spread of the perfidious and barbaric practice of slavery to California must be prevented with all costs.
 

Mikkel Glahder

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I vote in favour Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people and thus in favour of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected by the legislature.

I vote in favour Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion.

I vote in favour of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term.

I vote in favour of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all White, Hispanic and Civilised Native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the age of twenty.

I vote in favour of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastern Territories as autonomous territories.

I vote in favour of Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press and, property, and other such rights.

I vote in favor Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trial of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights.

I vote in favour Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish.

I vote against Mr. Kingston's slavery proposal.

I also wish to propose the following motion.

Motion to fully legalize slavery​

Section I

§1 Slavery shall be fully acceptable in the whole of California.

§2 The slave trade and trading of slaves shall be fully legalized in the whole of California.

§3 The government shall have no right to interfere in the trading of slaves.

§4 The price of slaves shall be determined by the one who decides to sell them.

Section II

§1 All slaves shall be seen as property.

§2 The owner of the slaves may do as he wishes to them. This permits the owner to free the slaves if he wishes to.

§3 Freed slaves, may not be made into full citizen, they might hold property for themselves though.

Section III

§1 If a slave runs away, either on its own will or with the help from others, it shall be returned to its owner.

§2 If it got help in getting away, the ones who helped it, shall be fined accordingly to how many they helped.

Section IV

§1 The owner of slaves may himself decide what kind of punishment he gives to his slaves, if they are becoming decadent etc.

§2 If the slave dies under the punishment, the slave owner will not be granted any form of compensation from the state.

§3 If a slave is killed by another human being, the owner of the deceased slave, will be granted compensation from the man who did the act.

§4 If a slave is found guilty in performing an illegal act, they will be punished according to Californian law, unless other is stated.

- Nikolay Gagarin
 
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Spectre17

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I vote in favor of Mr. Clark's proposal that the Chief Magistrate is to be directly elected by the people
I vote in favor of Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion
I vote in favor of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term
I vote in favor of Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all white, hispanic and civilised native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the ago of twenty
I vote against Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastren Territories as autonomous territories
I vote in favor of Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press, property and other such rights
I vote in favor of Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trail of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights
I vote in favor Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish
I vote in favor of Mr. Kingston's slavery proposal

I will not see the unity and moral standing of our Fair Republic tainted by the institution of slavery, we must end this now and ensure that all men by born free, if not equal. While I clearly do not consider all men to be equal I do believe that every man, woman and child is entitled to basic human rights. Indeed, would the proponents of slavery see us, a supposedly free and just Republic, lag behind such old-world tyrannies as Spain in terms of ensuring the freedom of all the inhabitants of our land. Would these men see California fall to the level of Imperial Russia, ensuring the oppression of thousands under the iron boots of a few? Would they see men, women and even children cruelly murdered by men who merely had the fortune of being born to their position? For is it not true that every one of us is only different to those who even now toil on the ranches because of Divine Providence? Does this not mean that, like the monarchies of Europe, men must submit to other men merely because of their luck at birth? Would we have our Fair and Just Republic become nothing more then a personal fief of Mr Gagarin who, unable to secure for himself the government of Imperial Russia, has now come to California to ensure he retains the ability to oppress his fellow man? I would call on this chamber to tell the World that this land of ours will not become the home for the most reactionary members of Europe's Monarchies, men so vile that they are rejected even by the most tyrannical state in all of Europe. I hope that we will not stoop to that level, we are stronger then that and I believe we can ensure that all men born in California need not live their lives in shackles, I hope we can ensure that all men born in California are born free men.

~William Henry Clinton
 

Shynka

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I am in favour to Mr. Clark's proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be directly elected by the people.

I am in favour to Mr. Hyde's proposal for a commitment to secularism and freedom of religion.

I am opposed to Mr. Menzies' proposal for the Chief Magistrate to be elected to a single five year term.

I am in favour to Mr. Menzies' proposal for the suffrage of all White, Hispanic and Civilised Native males capable of passing a literacy test and over the age of twenty.

I am opposed to Mr. Menzies' proposal for the organisation of the Eastern Territories as autonomous territories.

I am in favour to Mr. Owing's proposal for the guarantee of the freedom of speech, religion, press and, property, and other such rights.

I am in favour to Mr. Owing's proposal as to the trial of citizens by their peers, and other such basic judicial rights.

I am in favour to Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish.

I am in favour to Mr. Kingston's proposal regarding the abolition of slavery within the boundaries of the republic.
 

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Mr. Clinton. I fail to see how free and honest slave trade make California my personal fief. Also, I didn't mention the blacks born in California in my motion.

- N. Gagarin
 

Spectre17

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Considering the cause for you coming to California was a failed attempt to secure the government of Imperial Russia by force and your ownership of a fairly large estate I would not seem far fetched that you came in order to ensure the ability to control your own personal fief. Indeed, the question remains, do you truly believe in a just and fair Republic or are you merely the opportunist that you seem to be? Would you have us stoop to the level of Imperial Russia? Fall behind the likes of Spain? I will never condone anything which sees this happen to our fair Republic and I will fight against it with my whole being.

~William Henry Clinton
 

Mikkel Glahder

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Imperial Russia is as backwards as it can be. Even the Tsar is a backward conservative man of no honor. The reason why I wanted to secure a government in Russia led by me, was to make it western. Also, yes, I do rule my estate myself, because I can. Also, you seem to despise me quite a bit. Is it because I am Russian? Nevertheless, I can assure you, that I believe in a fair and just Republic. Only if it keeps being fair and just though.

~ N. Gagarin
 

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Literacy in Spanish.Most of our population speaks it.

Fernando Alvares
 

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Currently, it would appear if the motion by Mr. Reed suceeds the test would be carried out in English or Spanish, at the takers preference. However, if it, there would be no official language as would be the case of a nay vote, it would be up to the decision of the local magistrate admistering the examination, though it would most likely be English or Spanish.
 
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Mikkel Glahder

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Old Ballot:

I vote in favour Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish.

- Nikolay Gagarin

New Ballot:

I vote against Mr. Reed's proposal that the languages of the Republic shall be English and Spanish.