Fortune Seekers (a new map for Majesty 2)

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Apr 10, 2010
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mm saves keep up freezing the game, when loading from the load game menu. Quite annoying because this map is long and saves are really needed for those who don´t want to spend some hours straight to beat your map.

what i dont really get is why you say so soon it can be a problem of the engine when it ONLY happens in this map of yours.... ha, it should be yours the problem. Keep looking for mistakes.

Hope you fix that, if not, the replayability of this map is compromised, at least i wouldn´t even care to replay it again with such a big problem. I´ll try to make it in one go...
 
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Hapuga

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Ojcar, when I make a claim, I am thinking about what I am saying. If it was the map, I would look for bugs in the map. I have fixed all mechanical bugs. This means, that this map has no bugs that would hang/crash/whatever the game because of MY clumsiness.

As mentioned above, the engine of the game is pretty weak and cannot handle serious battles like in this map. To say more, there are too many things going at the same time in this map, this overloads the engine. For example, just for you to get a picture and make a comparison, all Majesty 2 original maps have about 10-15 triggers, from which about 3-6 are working at the same time. This map has about 500 triggers, from which about 60 are working at the same time. Feel the difference. Plus, as I said, there is a known bug with how the savegames are dealt with. I have said that saved games ignore trigger timers. They may ignore something else, too which eventually, will lead to a crash.

By the way, some original campaign levels crash on a regular basis. And their structure is really simple. So its not the map to blame.
 
Apr 10, 2010
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You didn´t made a claim, you made a supposition. But, you could have said that earlier, for me the only map that crashed like this is this one, so i got my own reasons to say what i said.

Now that im playing, the difficultity is also an issue as it seems very ramdom, so, what you mean is that i don´t have to save the game so i don´t trigger higher difficultities earlier?. Seems it is what is happening.

In this game im playing now, i nearly lost all my kingdom at day 50 and black got to the center with the caravan on day 53... Although, im reconstructing buildings... even if i was nearly left only with my castle lol.

I saved two time so it could have contributed. But, why do i save?, because im not the only one who had the game crashed in the middle of something without even saving, losing all progress and having to start it all over again.
 
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unmerged(129811)

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You have great logic skills Ojcar! I have studied logic so I know......
 
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Apr 10, 2010
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You have great logic skills Ojcar! Unfortunately I have studied logic so I know......

what?¿


---

I lost the game at day 57 or so.

Next time i try, without saving.... hope it dont crashes, if it does, i will have to discard this map, because i play to finish it!!. Sorry ;), nice map on a... crappy engine?, maybe :(

To me is still just weird how it´s so limited (the engine).
 
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IamMeeks

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Ojcar, maybe you should take your own advice you gave someone in another thread. Be a better player. Other people are able to beat this map, get to the middle, and survive through day 200. So maybe it is just you. :D

As to the crashing, I have to say it is likely the game engine. If the map is made with the map maker, and it crashes due to too many triggers, and triggers going off when they are not supposed to do (like after you save the game), then that is the game designer's fault and not the map maker's.
 
Apr 10, 2010
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Ojcar, maybe you should take your own advice you gave someone in another thread. Be a better player. Other people are able to beat this map, get to the middle, and survive through day 200. So maybe it is just you. :D

We are not talking right now about beating the map, or me having problems with that, it´s about bug tracking and the best way to play this map without bugs. You should read what i said here with more attention. In other words, how is best to play considering the bugs the engine has.
 
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IamMeeks

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Think of it like an added challenge. How far can you make it without saving the game (because that is the main problem). I've played it 4 times now with it crashing only once (and I had saved it that mission).

It is kind of like hardcore difficulty. Can't load if you start dying. ;)
 

Hapuga

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Ojcar, I can tell you pretty much what is causing the problem. The building system of the AI.

I decided to give you guys a clearer picture of how engine works and how things are done in the map, so we would not have to argue about this again, and so that we would understand one another. Besides, Those who are planning to start on mapmaking for Majesty may find this information more or less useful. Let us begin.

As you might know, the map mechanics are made from triggers. A trigger is a special tool that makes events happen. A trigger consists of two parts: a condition and an action. Condition is an event that launches the trigger. There is a limited amount of conditions in the game, which also causes some problems and limitations, I will discuss this in more detail later. For example, a condition may be the specific day. Say, on day 10 the triggers starts working. An action on the other hand, is the event that occurs after launching the trigger. The action could be pretty much everything: building a building, spawning a hero, changing fractions, etc, etc.

All game AI's are trigger-based. The only difference is, their trigger are scripted in a separate file, or files. The cleverer the AI, the more complicated is the structure. The AI I made is on the level of Red Alert 2 AI, not very "clever", repetitive, but still quite fun. The "cleverness" of the AI is determined by the amount of patterns that it can use. These include, but are not limited to: building, defence, economy, assault and free roaming patterns. Could I add more than one pattern to this map? Of course. Would that be a good idea? No. In a normal game, the engine executes the AI, and resources are spread equally between map and other functions. Here, the AI is integrated into the map, meaning that the map has triple workload. Adding another, say, assault pattern (another ~20 triggers) would kill the game that is barely alive now.

Let us return to the triggers. As mentioned before, the map hang on Majesty 2 v.1.0 due to the building spawn. There are several reasons why a map could hang from a trigger:
1. The action is incompleteable. This is one of the reasons why the game might crash. For example. You cannot build a building on a place where enemy is. Imagine, that the AI has a specific zone where it builds, and there is only one free place left in that zone, and there are enemies there. The trigger shoots, the program tries to put a building to that place, but it cannot due to restriction. What happens? Ding. This problem is unsolvable.
2. The action leads to nowhere. For example, if I make an action to trigger another trigger, and then rename that trigger. The program will search for that trigger with a specific name and won't find it. Ding. This is solvable, its a mechanical bug.
3. Double reference. If the same entity is named differently (multiple names or "tags" are given) and the trigger calls them up at the same time, the game will hang. Solvable, another bug due to lack of attention.
4. Loading entities that are not added to the game. For example u made a new hero model, but you did not put all the required references. The game will hang.
There are more, I just dont remember them all now. There are plenty of ways to kill a map, and 90% of them are due to lack of attention. But as with issue #1, there are several things that you cannot control.

Let us examine the loading example. The problem is that the load file has a different structure than the map file. It reads and understands triggers in a different manner. For example, If I name a mission in the editor "gather gold", I will be able to play the game okay, but if I save, and continue from the save, the game will crash. The savegame file does not recognize the "gather gold" name. For the savegame it should be "gather_gold". Such small and seemingly irrelevant things are very hard to notice and recognize, and the savegame file is plenty of them. Now, as I have told you before, the savegame reads triggers differently. Savegame does not consider the cooldown for some reason. This is interesting, because the cooldown is an action, too. When time is X do action DELAY X seconds. The DELAY comand is ignored, meaning that the savegame does not understand it, meaning that there are contradictions in the engine.

The worst situation with the savegame is that it just hangs. When there is a crash, the game gives an error log, from which there is a slight chance to understand what is going on. If I could get the error log from this issue, I would 80% be able to solve it.

Thats all.
 
Apr 10, 2010
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Think of it like an added challenge. How far can you make it without saving the game (because that is the main problem). I've played it 4 times now with it crashing only once (and I had saved it that mission).

It is kind of like hardcore difficulty. Can't load if you start dying. ;)

I will make it as far has the game don´t crashes. In this last game all other factions attacked me without even battling between themselves (or i saw little confrontation between them), wtf, some times i got two factions attacking me at the same time in different parts of the town as if they were allied, without touching one another. You have 40 enemy heros and 3 barbarians also touching your balls. They were too many to handle at a moment (Day 40 ¬¬) and once you lost many builds on your kingdom and they don´t unbalance appears and they are on advantage over you. (3vs1 to not being in advantage btw)

Without saving, it has to be supposedly between 3 to "X" times easier from my limited testing. As saving, no matter what, triggers randomly some higher difficultity circumstances, it´s SO random that even waves of level 35 heros could turn easier than level 10 right now. The map as it was intended, without saving messing things up, "should" be much easier.

See my first post experience on the map here.

Ojcar, I can tell you pretty much what is causing the problem. The building system of the AI.

10 years ago i made several starcraft maps using the same way in making triggers and events so i know what you talk about.

Sad is to recognize the engine is like mildly done. Thinking about it not having it´s own capability to handle real kingdoms.... and having to build all the thing yourself... is ridiculous.

You have to adress seriously all those issues to the main devs in this forum. In hope the engine will be improved in the future with patches or wathever.


--

Rogue Safehouses (green) are destroyed even when they haven´t started spawning a thing or just few days later. They should have: a LOT more HP each, and many more heros (like twice in variety, warriors and some clerics) also with much higher levels (like 20). It would be more amusing to see they aren´t just stupid weaklings who die in the first wave they get of the kingdoms. I mean, to put there not only the challenge of money to get to the center. but, some hard thing to beat, maybe adding also some boss monster (wich stays only in the center). Whatever to make it just more entertaining. Just ideas.

Another thing that has annoyed me a lot of your maps (happened also in Blood and Honor) is the extremely limited building space we have even if there is plenty of room for buildings around and far from your castle, some times i have to look for room like searching for a needle, or just in places too much exposed to be destroyed. Building strategies are screwed in this map. What´s up with that?.
 
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Hapuga

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I will think about the green one. He is meant to be weak, its a "warm-up" place for your kingdom and for other rivals.

Hm, I never found it a problem... I mean the building. I can build well on both maps.... And the place is not an issue, too. There are PLENTY of space in this map. You just have to know how to use it wisely. If you know the paths where AI attacks, block those out.

Hint:
use the bottleneck tactics. the narrower is the place, the more control you have.
 
Apr 10, 2010
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Green is so weak that isnt even that warm up you talk about.

I insist, there is a GREAT problem about room space to build in your maps. You can´t build a thing around a wide area of the castle. That "i don´t know how to use it wisely" is out of place. This problem dont happens in normal maps. There IS a problem there, you are free to ignore it though.
 

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I will think about the green one. He is meant to be weak, its a "warm-up" place for your kingdom and for other rivals.

Hm, I never found it a problem... I mean the building. I can build well on both maps.... And the place is not an issue, too. There are PLENTY of space in this map. You just have to know how to use it wisely. If you know the paths where AI attacks, block those out.

Hint:
use the bottleneck tactics. the narrower is the place, the more control you have.

I've had no problems with building space other than a little bit of area that looks buildable, but isn't, which is to the east of your castle just before the mountain range. I think you may have fixed it in the new version though (I haven't had the time to test the new one out yet). I've been able to build 3 of every guild, plus marketplace, blacksmith, and all the other extra buildings, and had room for towers for defense each time I played it (and was able to last that long). Plenty of room for me.
 
Apr 10, 2010
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Mmm seems it´s another ramdom thing then. But the same happened in For blood and honor. In the pavement where the castle is, there were many room but i couldn use a lot of it. Could be related to the peasant houses that spawns at random near the castle taking more building room than they should by their actual size.
 
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Hapuga

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Green is so weak that isnt even that warm up you talk about.

I insist, there is a GREAT problem about room space to build in your maps. You can´t build a thing around a wide area of the castle. That "i don´t know how to use it wisely" is out of place. This problem dont happens in normal maps. There IS a problem there, you are free to ignore it though.

To me it looks like you are making a problem out of nowhere. You are pretty much the only person dissatisfied with this map. If you are, you are free to ignore it through.
 
Apr 10, 2010
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I was just giving feedback. Not about being satisfied or not. Pointing out weird things.


Edit: mmm the game just crashed at day 67 (without saving, all went fine, no difficultity issues). I give up on this map, too ambitious for the crappy engine it seems.:wacko:


Lucky those who hadn´t had issues, seems i have had all of them.

Bay.
 
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i think you're being a bit uptight about some of the flawes that are in this map but also fundamently in the game.. The building space issue exists since one cant see the boundaries of building sites or cant build on places where heroes or monsters walk (or die even)... and since the castle is near the edge of the map there isn't much building to be done there...That problem of planning just exists in the game...

The other things i havent seen yet in game but i dont think the ganging up of factions on the player have to be dealt with. it might been a welcome alternative to gang up on the player instead of eachother (AI's).. I dont know if i must agree with making the green faction stronger as the other players might be rushing into an invincible wall of strong heroes where there own progress comes to a halt... it might make the map easier for players who use the turtle tactic..

That all aside: for me this is the most enjoyable map since day of the bay...
 

Hapuga

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The AI fights against each other as much as they do against the player, even more I'd say. the only difference is that the player is passive and defensive by default, and the AI is active and aggressive by default.

While not having enough time now I will try and look into the map further. I do not promise anything, but I will do my best to minimize the chance for drop out and hanging. I will not change the in-game balance. I will add some building space to the south from a castle.
 

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Great news!

The map and the AI underwent some major changes and I WAS able to find what did the savegame disliked in my map. As a result:

Correct spawns after saving - works.
Correct save game loading - works.

Plus a new Temple building pattern for AI, now each AI has different temples all the time.
And some random improvements like asked building space south from the castle, etc etc.

Unfortunately, I had to remove all graffiti and dark buidings, and leave ai2 and ai3 with common buildings, because those entities were causing the game to hang. Well, not a dramatic loss, I guess ;) Will post the map today after some more testing.