Forts as generic holdings

[Rags17]

Full disclosure, I got the idea from this thread here - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/university.968464/ .

Specifically, it was the second and third posts that got me thinking - why not use the current "vanilla" Fort slot as a generic or universal "local industry / fort" holding ?

The first thing to do would be to rename the current Fort slot as something generic, say "Outpost". The idea would then be to create a number of buildings within the currently empty (but moddable !) Fort slot that are only buildable under certain conditions, say a Fishing Haven if the province is coastal, a Timber Camp if the Outpost is in a forest etc.

Even better, the Regions system allows players to mod in new custom Regions that can overlap the existing regions. One "region" could be a collection of say 50-60 provinces that contain "copper deposits", this would allow the Outpost to build a Copper Mine if the province was located in the "copper deposits" region. Similar "regions" could be made for iron ore, salt, or gold etc.

You could also build the holding up in other directions, ie as a mini-Castle or Church. Building options could include a small Blockhouse or Barracks (more troops), Shrine or Hermitage (Piety source) or Breastworks or Ditch and Bank (Increased Fort Level).

At it's heart though the holding would be a Fort, which means that it could be wiped out in a single siege. The option should thus exist to convert the Outpost into a permanent holding type fro a fistful of cash and or Prestige.

An Outpost that had the Level 'X' Breastworks might be able to be turned into a Tribal or Castle, if it had a Level 'Y' Fishing Port it could be turned into a City, a Level 'Z' Hermitage could be turned into a Church. Doing this would of course remove the Outpost, which would open the slot to another Outpost development.

At the very least, being able to set up a Fishing Village, or Copper or Gold Mine would be very immersive.

 

[Rags17]

UPDATE

Okay, so i edited the Fort holding to include a building called Fishing Haven that added a small tax benefit (0.5), a small levy (1 galley and 10 Light Infantry) and a garrison boost (0.2 = 20%). I also edited the potential so it was limited to the region "world_middle_east_jerusalem", ie the duchies of the east coast of the Mediterranean.

After some stuffing around I got the region part to work - playing as the Abbasid Caliph I was able to build a Fort on the Red Sea that had no options, but a Fort anywhere on the coast of Jerusalem gave me the option to build a Fishing Haven, which I did. Success !

Kind of.

First, it seems that you even though you can add a levy to a Fort you can't raise it - all it does is add to the Fort's garrison. I discovered this by putting in silly values of +100 galleys and +1,000 LI for the Fishing Haven - still no levy but the garrison was now 1112 ! The taxable income did go up by the specified amount and the build costs did debit from my total, but making both a prestige and a gold cost only debited me the prestige cost - go figure.

So, it seems that I CAN create custom regions, eg copper_regions, iron_regions, then make buildings only buildable in those areas, eg Copper Mines, Iron Mines etc, I CAN increase tax revenue, garrison size and fort level via various buildings, but I can NOT make a building that comes with a levy of any sort. Bugger.

Checking out the Trade Post buildings it seems that an auxiliary holding (eg Hospital / Fort / Trade Post) CAN increase your retinue size or the holding's garrison, but not its levy. Still trying to think of a workaround.

For now I am going to create a micro mod by defining a number of new region types, eg copper_regions, iron_regions, gold_regions etc then define the relevant buildings for them. I think that I will start with a small number of resources and build it up as I go.

If anyone is interested in helping with research or coding then please PM me !

 

[Amalamanhado]

These are some really great ideas and they could help with the mod I am working on, I am really busy this week but I am definitely in helping.

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

Don't forts already convert to castles? They were originally designed for holding steppe provinces during conquest, I was pretty sure you could convert them into castles once you took the (empty) province. Although, the mechanics of steppe conquest were changed in the last patch.

 

[Rags17]

These are some really great ideas and they could help with the mod I am working on, I am really busy this week but I am definitely in helping.

Thanks for that.

I am still working on it and have managed to think up around a dozen resource based buildings that will all be creatable, but only if you are in the right area. Thus you won't be able to build a Fishing Haven unless you're on the coast (or a major river or lake), a copper mine unless the area is in a copper region (copper_regions ={xxx, etc) and so on.

I have decided that the Outpost itself should be dead easy to set up and develop, but should only be able convertible into a City as it would be too much effort editing all of the other Holding types.

Also, Forts/Outposts are eliminated entirely if they are successfully sieged so it would be lousy if you had to pay say 300 Gold to develop an Iron Mine only to lose it in a local revolt. The limit will instead be technology - an Alluvial Copper mine will require say Tech Level 1 (tech type to be decided), an Open Pit Copper Mine Tech level 3 and a Pit and Shaft Copper Mine maybe Tech Level 5. Cost and benefit would be low in all cases, say 20-30 Gold to set up with a return of say 0.5 Gold per month.

The base Outpost will have a nominal garrison and Fort Level, say 30 men and FL = 0.5, but could be upgraded with Ditch and Bank, Palisade etc until it was say twice as good as the existing Fort, maybe 200-300 men and FL = 3 or so.

The idea is that Outposts should be easy to set up and keep developing and no big deal to rebuild if raided, but only if you have the right Tech Level. At the same time, you might not want to protect your Bog Iron Mine Outpost but you might want to protect it if it was a Pit and Shaft Iron Mine and Cloth Exporter centre.

Testing results over the next few days.

 

[sreckom92]

I have nothing to say but:
Yes.

 

[abauer2]

I really like this idea. A while back I made my own little building mod that took into account the terrain type of the province in which a holding existed to add things like fishing and mining. I really like the added idea of using the custom regions. I like the idea of doing it with forts or hospitals, especially hospitals since they aren't destroyed by raiding/sieging, but I also think it would be cool to add some ability to specialize to the original 3 holdings. Here is sort of what I am thinking:

- Right now, all castles, cities, and temples pretty much develop along the same path. You build up your tech, and build the same buildings everywhere.
- The three holding types are quite different. I am grossly generalizing here, but castles produce troops, cities money, and temples sort of a mix of troops/piety/money.
- I think that during the timeframe of the game, most "holdings" were fairly similar, in that their was a population center that had a liege lord who took care of it. Some of those lieges were feudal lords, many were religious, and a few, mostly in Italy, were burghers. (Again, GROSS oversimplification, I know)
- Why couldn't a feudal holding specialize in trade, or build a great cathedral? Paris is well known for both and was ruled by kings until Louis XIV moved the court to Versailles during the EUIV timeframe.

So, I was thinking that at some point in the development of a holding, it would branch into some sort of specialization. Say, at tech level 4 a holding splits into developing more along military or trade lines. Then it can further specialize into say, a cavalry center, a heavy infantry center...

Cities would still have the highest income potential, castles would still have the highest troop levy potential, but it would allow more decisions to be made that would affect how a game plays out.

Anyway, it's sort of a general idea more than a specific one, and I haven't thought at all about game balance just yet. I'll probably get around to modding something like this in the next month or so.