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unmerged(3420)

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In the original boardgame, maintaining fortresses cost money, with larger fortresses being more expensive. If you failed to maintain the fortress, it dropped to the lowest allowed value (some to zero, some to one, some to two). Everytime a fortress was taken by assault (not siege), it dropped a level. Every time you captured a fortress, you had to sacrifice 2,000 infantry from the victorious force per level of the fort; these units served as the new garrison. All in all, it worked very well, though money didn't flow as freely in the boardgame as it can in EUII.

I suggest that there be a maintenance cost per fort level, but that fortress garrisons still not apply against a nation's support limit. Don't link fortress size to tax level (Gibraltar is an excellent example of how fortress strength can't be linked to province wealth).

As for manpower, war exhaustion, etc., these are all efforts to deal with the game's signature failure; the monetary cost of war in this era. War was very expensive to wage, something not reflected in EU2. Raising armies was easy, almost regardless of situation. What was hard was paying for them. The game exaggerates the cost of raising an army and completely underplays the cost of maintaining the troops. A soldier's equipment and signing bonus were the equivalent of six month's wages. So 1,000 infantry should cost twice as much to maintain in a year as they cost to recruit. Right now, even at full maintenance, it's probably about a tenth as much to maintain as it is to recruit.

Fixing that would require radical changes to the game model, especially in technology research (currently the big money sponge in the game, which is silly; which 17th century nation spent 80% of their revenue on Trade technology?) But some simpler fixes should help. For example:

Units not in core provinces (or not in friendly territory) cost double maintenance. Units moving cost double maintenance, cumulative with the above. Each time a unit fights, it immediately costs the treasury two month's maintenance. If the treasury lacks the money to pay maintenance, a bank loan is taken immediately to put cash in the treasury. Loans taken during a war cost one stability. Eliminate War Exhaustion (it's modeled in the stability losses for loans).

Now if you have the cash for a little war somewhere, you can fight it without endangering your nation. But if you get stuck in a big war and you start to run out of cash, you can't keep armies in the field and you're forced to make peace as best you can. That's how it worked in real life, after all.
 

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Originally posted by Lord xEnderx
It's not the peace system that makes battles not as important, its that forts and the fighting system make it not so important. In a major country, your army could be crushed or annihilated, big deal, so 60k troops die. Just order up another 60,000 or hire mercenaries. Either way you can raise that army of another 60,000 within a year if you are a large major, though colonial majors would have trouble with this. As the Ottomans, I can riase 50,000 troops alone in Constantinople, and with over 200,000 manpower, raising new armies isn't a problem.

Its that with fortresses being so large, by the time you finish capturing them, if you do, you've got a 60,000 army breathing down your neck. While in real life in France even Napoleon wouldn't have been able to raise a 60,000 recruit army and defeat an experienced enemy army. Of course, if you are a minor, losing 60,000 men can be a problem. But with human planning and the use of mercenaries, even Portugal could defeat Spain with good planning. :(

I disagree.

If you win a large, decisive victory or two and essentially eliminate your enemy's standing army you can "sit" on your opponent and siege almost every province. Your enemy can't raise troops in those provinces, and doesn't get much tax revenue. You can then besiege at your liesure.

BarristerBoy
 

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Right BarristerBoy. I think the mere threat that you can do that should be a powerful incentive for the losing AI to accept a peace that's quite advantageous to its enemy. How this would be done, I'm not sure, but awarding 2% or 3% for very decisive victories would help.
 

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Originally posted by Secret Master
What you said, JohnMK, about garrisons not counting towards the manpower limit, is what I had in mind with forts costing money to support. Let me be more specific, though, in my language.

Say I have 10 level 6 forts. That would be 300,000 troops, plus 600 cannons, that I would have to support. What I say is that you pay 50% of the support cost those troops would normally cost to support, but that they do not count against the support limit. In that case, you would pay for them at 50% of the normal cost to support that many troops if it was under the support limit. Your field armies would then be subject to the normal manpower cap, and only when your field armies numbered more than your support limit would you begin to see the overcharge.

What is important here is that supporting 10 max forts, even without counting them against the support limit, would still be quite stiff to pay for. For extremely large nations, I could see it being a real drain on the monthly income to have max forts everywhere. In my opinion, this would be optimal, and would force players to make strict decisions about fortresses. Furthermore, this would tie into domestic policy. Highly offensive nations would opt to forego big forts, because they want more money to support field armies and will be assaulting enemy forts anyway. Defensive countries would naturally tend towards building up all forts, for that it where their strength lies. Ideally, you may even include a new effect on the offensive/defensive slider, regulating bonuses and penalties to the support cost for forts based on your doctrine.

The only snag I see is that the game was never designed for this originally, and the result is that all sorts of game mechanics can be really thrown off by this simple change. This might artificially slow down tech research for nations, which has significant consequences in the late game.

Couldnt agree more.
 

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Originally posted by Petrus
What would you call decisive?

I'll let somebody else define that. There are some people here with imagination . . . it would probably include one side losing far fewer troops than the other, in addition to a technical victory.
 

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Originally posted by JohnMK


In real life, the potential future impact of a large, decisive defeat was factored into any peace proposal. Anyway, your post a bit ambiguous. Do you or do you not think large, decisive victories should be assigned more victory percentage points?

I deliberately left it ambiguous, because I am not so sure of either myself. On the one hand, giving them greater percentages in peace could make winning major battles more useful for peace negotiations. On the other hand, the sheer threat of being sat on in every province by covering and siege forces should be enough to cause anyone to go to the negotiating table regardless of the current war score.

Im not sure whether the extra victory points will have the desired effect. I will say this, though. It has been stated before that the "cover all provinces" strategy is a game exploit. I do disagree with this, since this is the precise way of doing things in the Napoleonic Era (though greatly simplified and abstracted in the game). One thing is clear. At the moment, decisive battles leave something to be desired in terms of scope at the moment. Victory points being changed may help in one way, but the on the other hand, many people have noted that most late game nations can raise a Grande Armee every year if they feel like. In that context, assigning more value to battles may, or may not, make sense.

EDIT: When I said victory points, I was referring to the war score...
 
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Originally posted by JohnMK


I'll let somebody else define that. There are some people here with imagination . . . it would probably include one side losing far fewer troops than the other, in addition to a technical victory.

But defining "decisive" is exactly the most difficult part of the idea.

I've definitely had battles where my forces get absolutely demolished, but I wouldn't call it decisive because I had a lot more armies where that came from.

A decisive battle is one where your enemy's forces are largely destroyed, but I can't imagine how the computer would figure that out.

BarristerBoy
 

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hmm, maybe my experiences are more unique, but in a full GC, the AI only seemed to build massive forts in border provinces. This is true several times over for me, and here is the best example.

In a GC as Burgundy, I "united" France and Germany and everything inbetween, and had a healthy colonial empire. The Poles were still around, but were so lo tech it didn't matter. The real threat was Austria (talking 1780'ish here). She had huge forts running up and down my border, but you know what, once I hit the interior, I saw very few forts larger than Medium. In this time period, with the size armies I could field, this made no difference. And it was fairly realistic. Massive forts on border, not so big inside. Personally, I don't think it needs fixing right now.
 

Xanadu

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Then you just happened to run into one of those rare "realism" instances of the AI.
I tend to find it hard to accept some middle-of-nowhere province with a max fortress. Along the borders I find this much more tolerateable.

So how is the Eastside today neighbor? :)
 

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Originally posted by JohnMK
I partially disagree. The victory percentage system needs to be tweaked to award 2% or more to large, decisive victories. Also, ultimately, I would like to see manpower build it more slowly than it does currently, at least for large countries, and for devastating wars to be costly on the economy in the long run; such were the effects of depleting your young male population in those years. Currently, it's only modeled indirectly through the fact that you have to spend money on your troops and such.

Even if you tweaked the war score you would still have to seige and conquer provs to expand, which brings us back to square one.

Im completly agree with the rest though, with low man power long wars are MUCH tougher, so maybe that is a solution, but with lower manpower seieging forts would be tougher which bring us to like square -1.

right now as Russia i just had my first BB war and like 50,000 worth of armies were COMPLETLY destroyed, no problem though i had another 150,000 more where that came from. Which is unrealistic and makes majors much easier to play.

Maybe make manpower replenish like 3 yearly instead of 1 monthly (i think thats what it is) or soemthing of the sort.
 

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Xanadu- Cloudy but dry! (for a change) How's dem dere farmlands and such? :)
 

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Too many Washingtonians here for comfort. :) Maybe I'll just go crawl into a hole and not come back out. Actually, I think I'm going to watch a movie at Pacific Place tonight. Seeya there . . .
 

Xanadu

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@ WildWolf
To be honest I am over in Everett (big move ;)), but was born and raised in Snohomish, and I work in Lynnwood. Cloudy & dry here too.

@ JohnMK
Wish I can go, but I have Legion Beta testing duties to perform :).

For being a Swedish game this forum sure has a lot of Washingtonians ;).
 

unmerged(7580)

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Originally posted by Xanadu
@ WildWolf
To be honest I am over in Everett (big move ;)), but was born and raised in Snohomish, and I work in Lynnwood. Cloudy & dry here too.

@ JohnMK
Wish I can go, but I have Legion Beta testing duties to perform :).

For being a Swedish game this forum sure has a lot of Washingtonians ;).


I live in Lynnwood, where do you work? This thread is sorta getting highjacked by Washingtonians,eh?
 

Xanadu

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Originally posted by KlevesWarrior
I live in Lynnwood, where do you work? This thread is sorta getting highjacked by Washingtonians,eh?


212th & 66th
 
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Xanadu

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Originally posted by Bohunk
Late in the game I usually don't even siege fortresses. Win land battles a big empire will start to negotiate with colinies you haven't even conquered.

Also the provinces that have seen more wars tend to have bigger fortresses.
I have seen many many RotW colonies in the late 1700's with absolutely no fortresses at all. If there are colonies that I want I capture the ones I want and whoop their butts in Europe so I have a better chance of gettting the colonies I captured in the peace proposal.
 
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Originally posted by crooktooth

As for manpower, war exhaustion, etc., these are all efforts to deal with the game's signature failure; the monetary cost of war in this era. War was very expensive to wage, something not reflected in EU2. Raising armies was easy, almost regardless of situation. What was hard was paying for them. The game exaggerates the cost of raising an army and completely underplays the cost of maintaining the troops. A soldier's equipment and signing bonus were the equivalent of six month's wages. So 1,000 infantry should cost twice as much to maintain in a year as they cost to recruit. Right now, even at full maintenance, it's probably about a tenth as much to maintain as it is to recruit.

Fixing that would require radical changes to the game model, especially in technology research (currently the big money sponge in the game, which is silly; which 17th century nation spent 80% of their revenue on Trade technology?) But some simpler fixes should help. For example:

Units not in core provinces (or not in friendly territory) cost double maintenance. Units moving cost double maintenance, cumulative with the above. Each time a unit fights, it immediately costs the treasury two month's maintenance. If the treasury lacks the money to pay maintenance, a bank loan is taken immediately to put cash in the treasury. Loans taken during a war cost one stability. Eliminate War Exhaustion (it's modeled in the stability losses for loans).

Now if you have the cash for a little war somewhere, you can fight it without endangering your nation. But if you get stuck in a big war and you start to run out of cash, you can't keep armies in the field and you're forced to make peace as best you can. That's how it worked in real life, after all.

I like some of these suggestions and agree that the reason we can easily conquer the world is because of the low cost of armies and war. However, I think Paradox intentionally made this the case because they wanted the game to have more excitement. You make war as hard as it was realistically and it could be a pretty boring or painful game to play. It would be more interesting as a historical simulation though.

As for the bonus for winning a "decisive" battle - The point was that there are very few decisive battles in this game. About the only decisive battle you can have is if you eliminate an enemy army and are within a few months of covering all their core territory (so they can't raise more troops). Otherwise, another undead army is raised and comes after you.

I wouldn't increase the bonus for winning battles. If I were forced to tweak the system at all, I'd do something like having occupied (not captured or besieged, just enemy occupied) provinces count towards the victory percentage. They'd count for less than captured provinces and even less if they are non-core provinces. So if you defeat the enemy army and cover all his core provinces you've basically defeated him. Note that you'd still have to capture the provinces in order to demand them as a peace condition.

Waffen
 

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Originally posted by Waffen
I wouldn't increase the bonus for winning battles. If I were forced to tweak the system at all, I'd do something like having occupied (not captured or besieged, just enemy occupied) provinces count towards the victory percentage. They'd count for less than captured provinces and even less if they are non-core provinces. So if you defeat the enemy army and cover all his core provinces you've basically defeated him. Note that you'd still have to capture the provinces in order to demand them as a peace condition.

You know that's not a half-bad idea. I'd tweak it by saying that each province you have under siege (not just occupied) gives 1 or 2 percentage points.

There's been times when I have a half-dozen enemy provinces sieged, but have no victory points, yet the computer should be able to see that its not doing very well and should cut its losses.

BarristerBoy