Fort trolling

[mic-dk]

I am very happy about the changes to the forts, IMO the best change so far since release. But...

Is it really WAD that forts are able to "cover" each other? I had a hell of a time trying to beat down the Teutonic Knight, mainly because I had to siege the forts in Marienburg and <that province just to the south> simultaneously. If I sieged and captured just one of the provinces, it would flip back as soon as my army left.

I get that is how non-fort provinces are controlled, but should that extend to provinces with forts as well?

On a side note; mothballing my capital fort in Berlin does not seem to make the garrison leave - that has to be a bug, right?

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Sounds buggy.

Much as I like the general direction of CS, it does seem to suffer from a bit of Paradox Launch Day Syndrome.

 

[Naresh]

Capitals have an extra level of fort that cannot be mothballed because it doesn't cost maintenance to upkeep. There should always be 1000 men in your capital, ignoring modifiers.

 

[Sophotrates]

Sieging and capturing a fort equals removing the effects of that fort. If a nearby enemy fort is unbesieged, it will influence nearby provinces, flipping them to the enemy again if no army is present and as a result activating any forts on them, which will in turn flip their neighbouring provinces. Sounds like WAD to me. Just keep 1 unit on the fort until the other one is being besieged, that should do the trick.

 

[bizkit]

I think it's WAD, even I thought it was a bug at first.
If you capture a province with no fort, and there is a fort at any adjacent province, if you leave this province UNLESS you siege the fort nearby, then you lose the province immediately.

 

[mic-dk]

Capitals have an extra level of fort that cannot be mothballed because it doesn't cost maintenance to upkeep. There should always be 1000 men in your capital, ignoring modifiers.

Hm, OK. But I could mothball something in Berlin. It also changed the upkeep from 1.0 to 0.5 and a 1000 man garrison either way. I will take another look tonight.

 

[mic-dk]

Sieging and capturing a fort equals removing the effects of that fort. If a nearby enemy fort is unbesieged, it will influence nearby provinces, flipping them to the enemy again if no army is present and as a result activating any forts on them, which will in turn flip their neighbouring provinces. Sounds like WAD to me. Just keep 1 unit on the fort until the other one is being besieged, that should do the trick.

It just seems wierd to me that the rule also applies to provinces with forts. That means eg. France can build a Maginot style defensive line and basically force you to siege them all at once. That's pretty powerful. Of course it helps if it can be covered by a single regiment, but overlapping forts really are a PITA then. I guess they should be...

 

[Sophotrates]

It just seems wierd to me that the rule also applies to provinces with forts. That means eg. France can build a Maginot style defensive line and basically force you to siege them all at once. That's pretty powerful. Of course it helps if it can be covered by a single regiment, but overlapping forts really are a PITA then. I guess they should be...

Indeed, a very interesting system! I wonder if AI can exploit it as humans can. Won't surprise me that they'll be forever stuck on the first two forts, sieging one then the other. If they can't, it should be changed though, way too powerfull in the hands of a human player

 

[Seelensturm]

I expected you can use the fort yourself as long you occupy and maintain it?

 

[vfmikey]

But it doesn't work on forts. Last night I was fighting in Hungary. They have two forts in adjacent provinces, when I captured one, but not the other I didn't lose it, when I walked of it, what happens with no-fort provinces. So imho you got a bug.

I mean when you occupy it, you get your own "fort" and garrison. Why should it change hands.

 

[Ritmas]

It just seems wierd to me that the rule also applies to provinces with forts. That means eg. France can build a Maginot style defensive line and basically force you to siege them all at once. That's pretty powerful. Of course it helps if it can be covered by a single regiment, but overlapping forts really are a PITA then. I guess they should be...

Yep, it really is BS. Like if 3bordering provinces are fortified, you will need at least like 18k men? Splitting them to tiny 6k units, being food for the defender, you won't even have time to reinforce them, cause you'll have to go back to your own province and then move to reinforce. And there is tons of situations where the decisive battle takes place in adj province, and you can't move your army to help your other army/ally, just because your another army failed to siege a fort for 5years. I think surrounded forts should lose their ZoC, nor it's reallistic nor AI can cope with it.

 

[uishax]

It just seems wierd to me that the rule also applies to provinces with forts. That means eg. France can build a Maginot style defensive line and basically force you to siege them all at once. That's pretty powerful. Of course it helps if it can be covered by a single regiment, but overlapping forts really are a PITA then. I guess they should be...

Given the much higher costs of forts, a maginot level capability may be justified, though I'm curious if the AI can understand the 'single regiment rule'

 

[mic-dk]

But it doesn't work on forts. Last night I was fighting in Hungary. They have two forts in adjacent provinces, when I captured one, but not the other I didn't lose it, when I walked of it, what happens with no-fort provinces. So imho you got a bug.

I mean when you occupy it, you get your own "fort" and garrison. Why should it change hands.

Sure it wasn't their capital fort? That does not exert any ZoC and so wouldn't flip the province once you leave. It most definitely is the case up north in the T.O.

 

[Tacticus101]

That is definitely either a bug or just a misunderstanding of what happened.

When you capture a fort, you get the fort, so I don't see how it could have flipped unless you accidently mothballed it.

 

[vfmikey]

Sure it wasn't their capital fort? That does not exert any ZoC and so wouldn't flip the province once you leave. It most definitely is the case up north in the T.O.

But it doesn't make any sense that fort that I occupy, with mine garrison, for which I pay upkeep would change ownership. What would be the logic?

I'll check that out in the evening

 

[Bragi]

Hm, OK. But I could mothball something in Berlin. It also changed the upkeep from 1.0 to 0.5 and a 1000 man garrison either way. I will take another look tonight.

That's correct, same here in my Brandenburg run. That with the extra 1000 men is known, and it would be very illogical not being able to mothball one of your forts just because its in the capital (and therefore likely to be located in a relatively safe area, given your empire progressed a bit).

 

[mic-dk]

When you capture a fort, you get the fort, so I don't see how it could have flipped unless you accidently mothballed it.

But it doesn't make any sense that fort that I occupy, with mine garrison, for which I pay upkeep would change ownership. What would be the logic?

I'll check that out in the evening

The point is that the province is flipped by the zone of control of an adjacent fort, and I completely agree that is doesn't make sense for provinces containing another fort. Even though I captured the fort, it should still be able to maintain control in it own province and not get re-taken by the fort next door.

Anyways, I just thought it wierd. If Paradox agrees it will be changed, if not I'll adapt

 

[Tacticus101]

It is most certainly a bug.

I attempted to replicate your issue. I played Poland, declared war on the TO, sieged just one of the fort pair and then pulled all my troops back. The fort remained under my control, it wouldn't flip back to the TO. I have no idea why it did in your case.

 

[User4035]

It is most certainly a bug.

I attempted to replicate your issue. I played Poland, declared war on the TO, sieged just one of the fort pair and then pulled all my troops back. The fort remained under my control, it wouldn't flip back to the TO. I have no idea why it did in your case.

I suspect the OP is talking about non-fort provinces he seiged. Or he might have moved his army off before the fort was garrissond with his own.

 

[mic-dk]

I suspect the OP is talking about non-fort provinces he seiged. Or he might have moved his army off before the fort was garrissond with his own.

No. It was Marienburg and the province just to the south. They both contain forts.

@Tacticus101 - thanks for your test, your experience is how I would expect it to work. I have a save just before war start, so I will do a bit of experimenting tonight.