Fort mechanics make no sense sometimes

[Harlehus]

Okay, so i'm at war with Sweden plus allies. I'm relying on my advanced forts to hold the enemy at bay until i secure the wargoal. But all of a sudden the enemy just wades through the first line of forts and their ZOC(the forts in Hoya and Luneburg) and then proceed to magically pass the second line and its ZOC(the forts in Hamburg and Lübeck) making it to Holstein and snatching the wargoal thereby winning the war for Sweden. I have no idea why this happened as the enemy is usually stuck sieging those forts before moving into Denmark thus making this strategy viable. It seems to coincide with me building a fort in Lübeck but maybe that's just coincidence.

Anyone know the answer to why this happened?

 

[AJ123]

I have experienced similar issues. And like your example, it comes when I try to build a series of defensive lines with forts. The mechanics seem to work fine when forts are horizontal from each other. When they are vertical from each other, it's like the two forts cancel each other out, and there may as well be zero forts there.

 

[tobias.mb]

Well you can always move to allies territory if you are standing on a fort (even if you came from the other direction)
So if your enemies came from the south to hamburg or lübeck they can move on to holstein.
Overlapping ZOC are sometimes weird. Only one seems to actually apply. In my experience it is the higher level fort or if both are the same level, it is the one build last.
From what you wrote it seems when you build the fort in Lübeck, Wismar fell into the ZOC of Lübeck and your enemies could move from Wismar -> Lübeck -> Holstein.

 

[Chewy Yui]

I think the fact you have 220k+ men in your borders should be of greater concern.

Seriously tho, forts are weird, it's hard to see what and what can not be moved through by enemies, and the fact that vassal provinces arent affected by your forts ZoC, makes the whole fort system an un-intuative mess

 

[Harlehus]

Well you can always move to allies territory if you are standing on a fort (even if you came from the other direction)
So if your enemies came from the south to hamburg or lübeck they can move on to holstein.
Overlapping ZOC are sometimes weird. Only one seems to actually apply. In my experience it is the higher level fort or if both are the same level, it is the one build last.
From what you wrote it seems when you build the fort in Lübeck, Wismar fell into the ZOC of Lübeck and your enemies could move from Wismar -> Lübeck -> Holstein.

That makes sense, thank you. Even though Wismar is still listed as within the ZOC of Lüneburg.
Still, i feel it makes very little sense that without the fort in Lübeck the enemy cannot pass through to Denmark but with the extra fort they just breeze through. i mean if anything it should be the other way arround.


Thanks for all the good replies

 

[kitemasaki]

They definitely need to fix ZOC when you occupy forts in enemy territory. I am not asking that you get the total ZOC, but enemies should not be able to walk through a fort you occupy. You should be able to depend on the defensive line pushing forward to protect your back. Instead, all the forts you take have as much use as a no-fort capital.

 

[Pellucid]

There's a gap at Wismar. The enemy can enter Wismar from either Ruppin or Rostock. From Wismar they can go to Lubeck, and from Lubeck they can go into Holstein since occupied enemy territory doesn't allow your forts to exert zoc.

Join my crusade to get them to put forts back the way they were originally and this won't happen in the future!

 

[Harlehus]

But shouldn't my ZOC from Lüneburg prevent them from going from Wismar to Lübeck like it is normally the case?

 

[Pellucid]

But shouldn't my ZOC from Lüneburg prevent them from going from Wismar to Lübeck like it is normally the case?

I'm not sure what the game logic is behind which fort you're allowed to go to when two are adjacent to a province.

 

[Incompetent]

I think the current rules can be summarised as 'when ZOCs overlap, the invader chooses', i.e. if an invader's army is in the ZOC of multiple forts, he can choose which fort to move onto. This is obviously a daft situation, as it means forts can actually aid enemy movement (here the path Wismar -> Lübeck -> Holstein is valid, but would become invalid if you had mothballed/demolished the fort at Lübeck, because then WIsmar would be exclusively in Lüneburg's ZOC). I don't see an easy fix, though. Probably the only solution that would work in all situations is if the owner of forts can manually specify, on every province where there is an overlap, which fort takes ZOC priority over that province, and then the invader has no choice but to move onto the fort that the defender has chosen. With such a fix, it would be possible to create closely-packed fort systems that actually channel the enemy into a specific corridor of attack (which is generally how lines of defence are designed in real life).

@Pellucid: If the Hansa exerted ZOC over Holstein, that would indeed prevent the enemy moving to Holstein in this instance. But it doesn't solve the general problem of forts sometimes giving invading armies extra options that they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

[ChildeR]

I think the current rules can be summarised as 'when ZOCs overlap, the invader chooses', i.e. if an invader's army is in the ZOC of multiple forts, he can choose which fort to move onto.

IME when there's ZOC overlap the game chooses one and sticks with it. No idea about the logic how it picks, but there seems to always be only one path forward (plus friendlies). Here the path was probably Weimar->Lübeck, which explains how the armies got where they are.

 

[justin6477]

I think the current rules can be summarised as 'when ZOCs overlap, the invader chooses', i.e. if an invader's army is in the ZOC of multiple forts, he can choose which fort to move onto..

Worse, there's actually a logic as to which fort "wins," it's just entirely unclear as to why one level X fort is superior to another. It does look like the enemy went Wismar>Lubeck>Holstein, which, so long as Wismar was in Lubeck's ZoC, was 100% by the book.

The lesson here is that you should keep two unfortified province between forts to ensure a defined ZoC wall. Or, if you can afford it, go full Maginot in an area.

 

[Incompetent]

Worse, there's actually a logic as to which fort "wins," it's just entirely unclear as to why one level X fort is superior to another. It does look like the enemy went Wismar>Lubeck>Holstein, which, so long as Wismar was in Lubeck's ZoC, was 100% by the book.

Hmm, interesting. That's even worse design, because it means that not only does the defender not control how their own ZOCs work, they can't even tell how their own ZOCs work. Apparently the UI was actually lying in this case (it displayed Lüneburg as the fort that controlled Wismar.) The devs really need to fix this.

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

It seems to coincide with me building a fort in Lübeck but maybe that's just coincidence.

There's a gap at Wismar. The enemy can enter Wismar from either Ruppin or Rostock. From Wismar they can go to Lubeck, and from Lubeck they can go into Holstein since occupied enemy territory doesn't allow your forts to exert zoc.

But shouldn't my ZOC from Lüneburg prevent them from going from Wismar to Lübeck like it is normally the case?

If you're in a province in the ZOC of multiple forts, you can enter any of the forts. While there was no fort in Lubeck, troops entering Wismar were forced to move to Luneburg. Now, they're free to move to Lubeck because they're also in the ZOC of a fort there. That's why they were unable to get through before you built the fort, but can now.

 

[ringhloth]

Lubeck is your capital, so it's one fort level ahead of the others, I assume. So they march Wisma-Lubeck (you're in the ZoC of Lubeck as it is the highest level) and then Lubeck-Holstein (moving into a different country). At least, that's what I assume is happening. A picture rarely says a thousand words is the saying, no?

 

[grumphie]

If you're in a province in the ZOC of multiple forts, you can enter any of the forts. While there was no fort in Lubeck, troops entering Wismar were forced to move to Luneburg. Now, they're free to move to Lubeck because they're also in the ZOC of a fort there. That's why they were unable to get through before you built the fort, but can now.

actually, it does not from my expierience. one of the the forts neighbouring a province wins - and it's confusing. for example, in my milan run: milan gets presedence over mantua in brescia. my capita, thus 1 level higher, makes sense, right? nope - in switserland, it's the other way around.

right now, provinces only have a ZoC extended from ONE fort. hence they can sometimes just get into places you never expected them to, which is something that really needs to be fixed, or at the evry least made clear and predictable.

 

[Harlehus]

Lubeck is your capital, so it's one fort level ahead of the others, I assume. So they march Wisma-Lubeck (you're in the ZoC of Lubeck as it is the highest level) and then Lubeck-Holstein (moving into a different country). At least, that's what I assume is happening. A picture rarely says a thousand words is the saying, no?

Yearh i know it isn't the best of screenshots. Actually i moved the capital to Hamburg so i don't think this is what happened.


Again, thanks for all the well-informed answers

 

[ringhloth]

Yearh i know it isn't the best of screenshots. Actually i moved the capital to Hamburg so i don't think this is what happened.


Again, thanks for all the well-informed answers

Well, it doesn't change that they probably moved from a border province onto a capital province with a fort. Probably instead Luneburg - Hamburg.

 

[ChildeR]

right now, provinces only have a ZoC extended from ONE fort. hence they can sometimes just get into places you never expected them to, which is something that really needs to be fixed, or at the evry least made clear and predictable.

How would you fix it?

You can't have both ZoCs affect the province fully, otherwise there would be no way forward for an invader. You *could* make both directions available, but that would mean that more forts = less defense, so I don't think that's a good idea.

Making the interface clear about it is the best option I can think of. Which fort controls which province should be clear and changes to it should be visible in advance when you build a new fort.

 

[justin6477]

Well, it doesn't change that they probably moved from a border province onto a capital province with a fort. Probably instead Luneburg - Hamburg.

Wismar>Lubeck>Holstein>Hamburg is a more likely path.

That said, I know what's causing it; ZoC clashes are determined by total development. As a trial, I loaded up as Castille and created forts in Murcia, Cordoba, and Cadiz before deleting my armies, declaring war on Granada, and tag switching. I also used cheats to increase development in all three fortified provinces to test for various factors, which ruled out military development being the primary or sole factor. In my picture, the armies in Jaen can move to directly to Murcia because it has higher development, but need to return home before moving into Cordoba. As for the army in Sevilla, it can move to Cadiz despite me giving Cadiz and Cordoba equal development across the board. Not sure why it went that way, but whatever.

After thinking on this a bit, I'm okay with this being the situation, the game just needs a better way of relating possible movement paths to the player... and preferably something a bit more permanent than the checks, x's, and o's situation we have now. Maybe clicking on a fortified province could highlight it's ZoC? ZoC mapmode? I really don't know what's possible.