• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sep 3, 2003
631
0
Visit site
re Sytass

Ah, so your point is not that fascism should be in the game but rather that proletarian dictatorship shouldn't? As I said, the Communist Manifesto was written in 1848, which is early in the Vic timespan, and there were communist/socialist parties during the time (unlike fascist), so I find the proletarian dictatorship government justified.

I can agree but then there should be extreme nationalism dictatorship in Vic. Nationalism was in my opinion as much important as communism was, or maybe much more important in XIX centuary. By the way socialism was more important and popular in XIX centuary societies than communism was ever.
 

unmerged(10416)

Winter depri
Jul 28, 2002
3.333
3
The thing is that, prior to WW1, extreme nationalism was mostly centered on the monarch and the traditions of a country.

Only when monarchism and old-fashioned form of government (big capital and money-aristocracy or old aristocracy run the state, citizen duty, class divisions) became thoroughly discredited, did fascism as we know it arise. After all, fascism is all about making a "New State" and very much about creating a new order on the ashes of an old one.
 
Sep 3, 2003
631
0
Visit site
re Karl Martell

I think that you're wrong. Here is definition of nationalism.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook17.html

Nationalism was the most successful political force of the 19th century. It emerged from two main sources: the Romantic exaltation of "feeling" and "identity" [see Herder above all on this] and the Liberal requirement that a legitimate state be based on a "people" rather than, for example, a dynasty, God, or imperial domination. Both Romantic "identity nationalism" and Liberal "civic nationalism" were essentially middle class movements. There were two main ways of exemplification: the French method of "inclusion" - essentially that anyone who accepted loyalty to the civil French state was a "citizen". In practice this meant the enforcement of a considerable degree of uniformity, for instance the destruction of regional languages. The US can be seen to have, eventually, adopted this ideal of civic inclusive nationalism. The German method, required by political circumstances, was todefine the "nation" in ethnic terms. Ethnicity in practice came down to speaking German and (perhaps) having a German name. For the largely German-speaking Slavic middle classes of Prague, Agram etc. who took up the nationalist ideal, the ethnic aspect became even more important than it had been for the Germans. It is debateable whether, in practice, all nationalisms ended up as Chauvinistic and aggressive, but the very nature of nationalism requires that boundaries be drawn. Unless these boundaries are purely civic, successful nationalism, in many cases produced a situation in which substantial groups of outsiders were left within "nation-states".
 

IEX Totalview

General
26 Badges
Dec 13, 2001
1.931
0
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
Originally posted by Spruce
what regimes were fascist in the Victoria era?

and what's your opinion about the confederacy?

I'll take a stab at the second part - the Confedracy was an democracy, same as the United States. Certainly nowhere near fascist.
 

Spruce

Straight Templar Monk
41 Badges
Jul 30, 2001
7.182
8
Visit site
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
Originally posted by IEX Totalview
I'll take a stab at the second part - the Confedracy was an democracy, same as the United States. Certainly nowhere near fascist.

don't take a stab, I didn't say the confederates were fascist!

It was a very specific situation. There existed "free blacks", altough the majority of the blacks were excluded from the political life by being slaves.

How would you describe the "peculiar institution" policy of the South?
 

Dark Knight

Troll-slayer
2 Badges
Jun 8, 2000
9.512
1
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
Originally posted by Dzoser

I wonder why if there is Proletarian Dictatorship there won't be fascism form of government in Victoria? If I can play as communist why I can't play as someone like Franco?
There is a form of government in the game called "Proletarian Dictatorship", which is obviously intended to model the form of government adopted by communist countries (which was not really a dictatorship of the proletariat, but that's an entirely different issue). There is not, however, a form of government called "communist".

Also, revolutionary Marxist, revolutionary non-Marxist, and democratic and evolutionary forms of socialism gained greatly in popularity during this period. Although there were some groups considered to be "proto-fascist" (for example, Action francaise), they were of relatively little importance, and fascism itself is a post-war development and is not simply extreme nationalism.
 

IEX Totalview

General
26 Badges
Dec 13, 2001
1.931
0
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
Originally posted by Spruce
don't take a stab, I didn't say the confederates were fascist!

It was a very specific situation. There existed "free blacks", altough the majority of the blacks were excluded from the political life by being slaves.

How would you describe the "peculiar institution" policy of the South?

Well, even free blacks were generally excluded, in both the North and the South. The closest description I can come up with is an Apartheid Democracy, where the franchise is fairly universal among white males and non-existent for other groups.

So the post civil war South would have a government much like the pre-civil war United States, and that would be classified as a democracy.
 

unmerged(14338)

Oh energy where art thou?
Feb 2, 2003
850
0
Originally posted by Dzoser




I don't think that Germany was extreme nationalism state in 1914.
Maybe there should be just nationalism dictatorship in Victoria?
Maybe there should be no nationalism or proletarian dictatorship?
Soviet Union emerged in 1917 (I know it was called Soviet Union in 1922), Fascist Italy emerged in 1922, both of these states are for me too late for Victoria.

Nationalist Dictatorship? Well, IMHO, that's what Germany was, But i think that that name describes the politics of the country well, Don't you agree? Everybody knows what "Proletarian Dictatorship" is, Everybody knows what kind of Politics a Democracy uses, etc. A Nationalist Dictatorship could as easily be Fascist as Communist, IMO. Just look at the "Great patriotic war" That the Soviets fought against Russia in ww2. That's what i call Nationalist Dictatorship.

And considering the CSA, wich i don't know to much about, so don't blame me if im wrong, but Wasn't the big question and the couse of the Civil war that the South wanted to keep it's Black slaves? :rolleyes:

That's kinda Fascist, imho.
 

Spruce

Straight Templar Monk
41 Badges
Jul 30, 2001
7.182
8
Visit site
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
Originally posted by IEX Totalview
Well, even free blacks were generally excluded, in both the North and the South. The closest description I can come up with is an Apartheid Democracy, where the franchise is fairly universal among white males and non-existent for other groups.

So the post civil war South would have a government much like the pre-civil war United States, and that would be classified as a democracy.

yeah, I can agree with your first paragraph,

and my remark about the "peculiar situation" doesn't bring added value to gameplay,:rolleyes:
 

IEX Totalview

General
26 Badges
Dec 13, 2001
1.931
0
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
Originally posted by R.F.A
And considering the CSA, wich i don't know to much about, so don't blame me if im wrong, but Wasn't the big question and the couse of the Civil war that the South wanted to keep it's Black slaves? :rolleyes:

That's kinda Fascist, imho.

How is that Fascist? You can argue it's wrong, misguided and immoral, but how is is Fascist?

The government type was a democractic republic, with a (directly or indirectly) elected president, representitives, governors and state legislators. If you want a democracy to have a post-WWII style universal sufferage, that likely ain't happening in the 19th century.
 

unmerged(14338)

Oh energy where art thou?
Feb 2, 2003
850
0
Originally posted by IEX Totalview
How is that Fascist? You can argue it's wrong, misguided and immoral, but how is is Fascist?

The government type was a democractic republic, with a (directly or indirectly) elected president, representitives, governors and state legislators. If you want a democracy to have a post-WWII style universal sufferage, that likely ain't happening in the 19th century.

Isn't the big Thingy about Democracy that Everybody has the same rights? Well if you prefer the term "Rascist", i'll call the CSA that, But as Rascism is one of the ground pelars of fascism, i consider it a part of Fascism. To be Rascist is being a kind of Fascist.
 

Dark Knight

Troll-slayer
2 Badges
Jun 8, 2000
9.512
1
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
Originally posted by R.F.A
Isn't the big Thingy about Democracy that Everybody has the same rights? Well if you prefer the term "Rascist", i'll call the CSA that, But as Rascism is one of the ground pelars of fascism, i consider it a part of Fascism. To be Rascist is being a kind of Fascist.
If that last statement were true, then many, if not most, communists, socialists, liberals, conservatives and others in the Victoria period would have been fascists, as their views on race would tend to be considered "racist" by current standards.

Furthermore, racial thinking was actually not a particularly important part of Italian fascism, certainly nowhere near the extreme that it reached in Nazism. And both fascism and Nazism as ideologies concerned far more than just racism. Many fascists may have been racists, but this does not mean that all racists are fascists.
 

IEX Totalview

General
26 Badges
Dec 13, 2001
1.931
0
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
Originally posted by Dark Knight
If that last statement were true, then many, if not most, communists, socialists, liberals, conservatives and others in the Victoria period would have been fascists, as their views on race would tend to be considered "racist" by current standards.

Furthermore, racial thinking was actually not a particularly important part of Italian fascism, certainly nowhere near the extreme that it reached in Nazism. And both fascism and Nazism as ideologies concerned far more than just racism. Many fascists may have been racists, but this does not mean that all racists are fascists.

Excellent point. You have to look at the practical effects of the siutation - is the government ultimately accountable to a reasonably broad electorate? In both the United States and the Confederate States the answer is yes.

Great example is South Africa in HOI, which had a democratic government despite the fact 85 percent of its population was denied the vote.
 

unmerged(19173)

Captain
Sep 1, 2003
334
0
Visit site
Well Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), one of the main philosophers of the fascism was in the timeframe. The ideology was there and the first fascist state 1922 was just 5 years after the first communist state 1917 and it didn’t appear from nowhere. IHO In the game fascism should be there, just in case that the WWI starts and finishes earlier.
 
Last edited:

Drakken

Kawachi-no-kokushu
93 Badges
Jan 1, 2001
5.309
3.000
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
Originally posted by todorp
Well Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), one of the main philosophers of the fascism was in the timeframe.

Wha? How come you put Nietzsche as a Fascist philosopher? It's not because Hitler used one or two concepts allegedly coming from Nietsche that it makes him a Fascist.

D.
 

Paradox Interactive

Field Marshal
Paradox Staff
Feb 21, 2001
3.550
3
www.paradoxplaza.com
Originally posted by todorp
Well Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), one of the main philosophers of the fascism was in the timeframe. The ideology was there and the first fascist state 1922 was just 5 years after the first communist state 1917 and it didn’t appear from nowhere. IHO In the game fascism should be there, just in case that the WWI starts and finishes earlier.

What was it in my post that was hard to understand?


Patric
 

John Poole

Lt. General
58 Badges
Mar 31, 2001
1.293
0
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
For gameplay purposes I see no difference between fascism and Presidential Dictatorship....if you want to be Franco simply stage a coup and sieze power as a dictator. I dont see how that would be less satisfying to aspiring Francisco Francos...though why somebody would aspire to THAT I dont know :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.