Forming the Kingdom of Greece. Tips?

[TheIronTalon]

I am about to start my first serious game using the Legacy of Rome DLC and I am looking for some tips or pointers from anyone with experience in forming the Kingdom of Greece. Whilst I've played around in the Byzantine Empire before and managed to make headway in terms of expansion in the Empire it has come to my attention that forming the Kingdom has got to be one of the hardest to actually form.

Obviously the Kingdom of Greece doesn't exist at the 1066 scenario and in reality wasn't formed until some 800 or so later. My understanding of it is you need a minimum of 19 counties composed of your own holdings or vassals directly under you before you can create it. That doesn't seem to difficult in and by itself, however, you have to do that within the confines of a tumultuous Empire so it makes it significantly much harder to achieve and actually maintain.

I am the type of player who likes to start out as a Count and then work my way up, claiming greater titles as I go along. So starting out as a Count in the greek peninsular what would be the best way to form the Kingdom? I am in no rush to become Emperor and therefore marrying one of the Emperor's daughters or whatnot and inheriting the Empire first and only then forming the Kingdom of Greece doesn't sit well with me giving the nature of how I like to play. Becoming a Doux is no hard feat, that just takes patience. However, gaining and holding multiple Doux level tiles in order to form the Kingdom sounds a lot more difficult.

Anyway, you get the gist of it. I am looking for tips on how to go about it and also advice on which Count or Countess to start with that will give me the best opportunity to form it within a reasonable time frame. All help is appreciated!

 

[PureBeef]

I too am trying to form Greece in my game, except I am doing it as a Catholic (Dregnot from Capua). Anyway, the way I have been able to capture holdings in Greece and avoid getting stomped by the Byzantines is for two reasons:
1) I only capture lands that are currently held by either independents, or Muslims.
2) I always marry a member of the Byzantine Royal Family to get the alliance.

So far it seems to be working, but it is a slow process.

 

[Ols]

Perhaps a Latin Empire period start might be in order? Trying to form Greece from the remains of the Byzantine Empire while other local Muslim states are weaker might be a more ideal path to success.

 

[Eldorian]

Being Despot of Greece without being the Basileus is gonna be really hard.

 

[Ols]

Just checked out the Latin Empire and it's quite a bad start date. Maybe start once Rum has broken up and the Byzantine Empire is all but gone. Then you need to fight off Venice, Aragon and various small powers to bring Greece glory.

 

[generalolaf]

I did this from the 1066 start on Normal starting as the Doux of Achaea (back in 1.06b), but I imagine the method would be pretty much the same starting as a Count; just expand with marriages and claims, try to keep CA at Limited as much as possible (and avoid Medium+ at all costs!), defend against Muslim invasions of the Empire with all your troops (once you get to Doux level this is likely to help quite a lot in the way of keeping the Empire intact) and above all, MAKE SURE to hold only one Doux title (destroy any others you acquire) to stop people plotting to have them taken away.

I managed to form Greece by around 1170 IIRC, so as a count it should be doable by 1220 or thereabouts.

 

[TheIronTalon]

Being Despot of Greece without being the Basileus is gonna be really hard.

I do like a challenge so that's perfectly acceptable to me. The fact that I can theoretically become the Despot without actually being the Basileus makes it far more appealing to me.

I did this from the 1066 start on Normal starting as the Doux of Achaea (back in 1.06b), but I imagine the method would be pretty much the same starting as a Count; just expand with marriages and claims, try to keep CA at Limited as much as possible (and avoid Medium+ at all costs!), defend against Muslim invasions of the Empire with all your troops (once you get to Doux level this is likely to help quite a lot in the way of keeping the Empire intact) and above all, MAKE SURE to hold only one Doux title (destroy any others you acquire) to stop people plotting to have them taken away.

I managed to form Greece by around 1170 IIRC, so as a count it should be doable by 1220 or thereabouts.

I didn't actually consider dissolving the other Doux titles aside from my primary. That would make managing such a vast amount of vassals and holdings as a Doux a lot easier. Thanks for the tip

 

[Yenzen]

Wait until a fatimid/seljuk invasion followed by a crusade. I think that's the usual way of creating that title.

 

[Eldorian]

I do like a challenge so that's perfectly acceptable to me. The fact that I can theoretically become the Despot without actually being the Basileus makes it far more appealing to me.

The thing to worry about is weakening the Empire to the point of inviting invasion from the Fatimids or Seljuqs, if your efforts to claim the heart of the empire destabilize it.

I do have to say, the last time I played a single county start in Greece, the game was over in 21 years after the Empire was almost completely destroyed by a chain invasion by the two major muslim powers. The Fatimid invasion of Greece finished the deal. The capital of the empire was in some podunk county north of the Black Sea, I was subject to a Fatimid ruler who was revoking my titles, and I just quit.

 

[disgradius]

I tend to like conquering Sicily first. High tech and high tax base area, then use that as a power base to conquer w/e I need to in the mediterranean.

One tip about fighting in greece, between your spymaster and a few scattered fleets, you can get line of sight on pretty much the entire byzantine empire. Pretty useful in wars.

 

[TheIronTalon]

Thanks for all the info so far, it's appreciated. A few points to make which I have observed so far in the campaign I started as the Count of Thessalia are:

- Overcoming the Basileus' crown authority is the biggest problem. He seems to almost always keep it at a stable medium which makes for internal conflict via fabricated claims nigh on impossible. Factions in which try to lower crown authority get stomped on big time by his armies. It seems that the faction power never gets to beyond 50% of his power. Of course, the AI get bold and tries to take him like that, but even if I control the faction I just won't give him my demands if the faction is only 50% of his forces. It's a pointless waste of resources as he roams around with his 15k army and gobbles up our tiny little armies.

- Secondly, in 80% of my games the Empire doesn't tend to get gobbled up by the Muslims. If infact we do lose Armenia and surrounding regions in the first wave of Muslim attacks, we almost always gain control of them again quickly. So profiting from our own misfortunes isn't an option.

So I suppose the biggest hindrance that I am faced with is crown authority given that I wish to expand my influence from within Byzantine territory, not outside it. As it stands, managing to hold more than a few counties is becoming problematic and instead I have to wait years upon years in order to reduce crown authority so that I can continue expanding. Is there any other way aside from using my Spymaster to scheme and convince others to join factions to lower crown authority? Otherwise becoming the Despot of Greece is going to be a long, boring and tedious game of luck based around the authority of the Emperor.

 

[ceasernet]

hi I know this is an old thread so no one will most likely see this but i usully start of as the duke of achacia and take all my lower tier counts lands to consolidate then i will get claims on the neighbouring duke to get more titles in greece i also sway the emperour so there is more chance he will give me the duchy when the previous duke dies once you have the 2 big duchys you normally have enough land to form the kingdom from their its pretty easy to become emperor

 

[Rubidium]

hi I know this is an old thread so no one will most likely see this but i usully start of as the duke of achacia and take all my lower tier counts lands to consolidate then i will get claims on the neighbouring duke to get more titles in greece i also sway the emperour so there is more chance he will give me the duchy when the previous duke dies once you have the 2 big duchys you normally have enough land to form the kingdom from their its pretty easy to become emperor

This thread is from 2012. Literally everything about playing in Byzantium is different from when it was created.