They have to vote for the reforms to become the emperor's vassals. Of course they went along with it.
Forming Holy Roman Empire way overpowered: zero autonomy and inherited coalitions
- Thread starter Krajzen
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Anyone who doesn't agree with a united empire aka doesn't agree to the second last reform/ vassalization LEAVES the empire automaticly. The party is over afterwards. You can then only clean up the vomit.
The HRE system is a really well done way of reducing autonomy; a slider and some unrest is the simple way. This is similar to how an event like the war of the roses is a well fleshed out revolt and the normal pretender rebel spawning is the simple way.
Going from a bunch of independent states to locked-in setup to all vassals to one nation is done through reforms, which are visible to outsiders, and a formal process - the result is a single nation with a firm central government... eventually, maybe. The problem here is not that the empire results in a 0% autonomy mammoth state with all the political leanings of the one who formed it. The problem is that the normal/generic integration process of vassals does not have all the pretty details of the HRE events, and is merely represented by high local autonomy eventually going away. OR the problem is that you didn't notice this happening the way you might notice someone integrate a vassal and only caught on when it was finished, similar to only realizing someone annexed a vassal after they'd had a chance to lower the autonomy.
Going from a bunch of independent states to locked-in setup to all vassals to one nation is done through reforms, which are visible to outsiders, and a formal process - the result is a single nation with a firm central government... eventually, maybe. The problem here is not that the empire results in a 0% autonomy mammoth state with all the political leanings of the one who formed it. The problem is that the normal/generic integration process of vassals does not have all the pretty details of the HRE events, and is merely represented by high local autonomy eventually going away. OR the problem is that you didn't notice this happening the way you might notice someone integrate a vassal and only caught on when it was finished, similar to only realizing someone annexed a vassal after they'd had a chance to lower the autonomy.
Yeah, right. As if anyone in their right mind would vote for something like that. The voting system in the HRE is an abstraction at best. Bavaria, Prussia or the Netherlands consenting to become de facto vassals of the Habsburgs is just mindblowing and even more ahistorical than spanish Siberia.
You are right that the voting system is at fault. But just because the voting is too simplistic, you don't have to forego the consequences. Read: Despite "consenting" they should still start with Local Autonomy.
To everybody saying that 0% autonomy makes sense because all the Princes voted to be part of the Empire - does this mean that Kaiser Wilhelm I had full control over all the provinces of the German Empire as soon as the Franco-Prussian war was over? Of course not; there was much internal strife and bickering even once all of Germany had been brought under Prussian dominion.
The same ought to be true of unifying the HRE - it's not as though all those Princes are going to retire to their chateaus and hand over the reins of local power to faceless Imperial bureaucrats.
The same ought to be true of unifying the HRE - it's not as though all those Princes are going to retire to their chateaus and hand over the reins of local power to faceless Imperial bureaucrats.
Good argument though one could say unifing the HRE is not the same as uniting most germans into the empire (plus it proved to be very solid even bavaria stayed) and more importantly EU4 doesn't know how to really simulate the difference between France in 1444 and France in 1778 exept that its vassals disappeared. The ruler still controlls everything directly. As far is I know it was full bickering as well and not only from the most powerfull ones.
Events regarding the aftermatch would be highly appreciated anyways.
I honestly think that unifying the HRE should definitely give the same levels of local autonomy as integrating a normal vassal. Seems to me like Paradox has continued with their old habit of introducing spectacular, complex, amazing new gameplay features, and then completely forgetting to make them interact properly with old ones.
True - I would perhaps support a lower amount of initial autonomy (maybe 40-60%) to represent the different character of Imperial consolidation vs run-of-the-mill diploannexation. 0% is still ludicrous though.
Still 75% on most of the owned land seems really harsh. If anything thes provinces should get something like +25% as already stated by someone else.
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While I agree that 75% is too harsh, it is too harsh on diplo-annexing as well. Since Wiz shows no signs of scaling that back, then I would like to see the same value for inheritances for consistency's sake.
I don't see any way in which an instantly inherited nation would be more likely to immediately give up all autonomy then a slowly integrated vassal would.
Absolutely 0 autonomy should be introduced.
Vassal swarm is already vastly superior to unifying HRE, a big misfit, if you want to nerf the unification nerf the vassal swarm stage first.
Vassal swarm is already vastly superior to unifying HRE, a big misfit, if you want to nerf the unification nerf the vassal swarm stage first.
2 wrongs don't make a right. Vassal swarm is insanely powerful because manpower limitations which cause a bunch of small countries to provide more manpower than 1 consolidated large country. It's not just in the HRE but also with normal vassals. Take France for example, if you release every possible vassal and keep your starting ones than continue playing like that without annexing any of your vassals than your total armies will be significantly larger than those you would be able to have if you annexed everything into the big blue blob. This is a handicap to large nations which is supposed to help smaller nations fight bigger ones. However the HRE breaks this system because the vassals don't take up any relation slots so there's no penalty to keep them around forever, unlike the above example of France. I understand why the HRE vassals don't occupy normal relation slots, as that will completely tank your diplo points unless you've already consolidated most of the HRE anyway and don't have many other alliances. However being completely malus free is indeed too powerful to the point of absurdity that getting the last reform and consolidating the HRE is actually weaker than keeping it with individual vassals, even more so now with the new vassal mechanisms from Art of War. This problem needs to be fixed, and has nothing to do with the issue mentioned in this thread.