Prussia is covered by being an elector and S-P stopped being a member of the HRE (along with most of northern Italy) ages ago.
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Forming Germany should delete the HRE
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If I understand it well, Electors can become Kings and remain in the HRE.
Therefore, Brandenbourg (elector at game start) can form Prussia to become king, and remain in the HRE -> nothing problematic here, just don't lose the electorate (don't even know if Emperor declares remove electorate wars).
For Sardinia-Piemont it's indeed problematic, as there are few chance for Savoy to become an elector before being able to get Sardinia. But, Sardinia-Piemont was formed after Italy was put outside of the HRE (Peace of Westphalia) thus it can make sense to say that the formation is a choice: new tag but leaving HRE vs staying in the HRE without the TAG. If both are wanted, the player should work to become an elector (I hope this is made less random). Sardinia-Piemont was a Kingdom but it was clearly outside the HRE.
Finally, Hannover wasn't a kingdom in EUIV timeframe, thus there should be no issue, and Westphalia becoming a Kingdom but leaving the HRE is ok as it was created by Napoleon after the Empire was disbanded. Once again, the Elector to Kingdom inside the HRE route is possible, as Palatinate, Cologne, Trier or even Mainz are viable candidate to expand in the area.
Last but not least, I'm actually ok with Germany leaving HRE and Emperor not being able to form Germany. I'm not sure this should be applied to Italy though, did Wiz answered this already? In Medieval times, the kingdom of Italy was Inside the HRE even though it wasn't held by the Emperor (sometimes). However, the current kingdom of Italy seems modeled on the Napoleonic one, thus out of the HRE. In some way, it makes sense.
But then, this is a pretty good argument for an additional Florence tag, as forming Tuscany won't put you out of the HRE and if you want to stay in, a player wouldn't form Italy.
All in all, I agree with this new mechanism.
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He does once he's allowed to (i.e. after a victory in the League War), and of course if someone wins the League War and you're a heretic you get summarily stripped of your electorate by the HRE mechanics.
Can you form Italy as the Emperor and remain in the HRE? This would make sense (somehow an Italian juggernaut getting the German crown as well) and prevent the +10% imperial authority Italian idea from becoming useless.
Heraldric logic would dictate that the Prussian dependency be incorporated in Brandenburg but the Elector of Brandenburg incorporated Brandenburg into Prussia.
The Elector technically named himself King of a land outside of HRE and incorporated his HRE lands in it, he loyard his way out of that technicality.
I don`t see why any HRE power can`t do this, Elector or not.
Sardinia-Piemonte was raised to a kingdom when it was outside HRE.
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Nnnnngh hard to tell, really. Differently from the rest of Italy, Savoy was always quite involved in the affairs of the Empire. While for the rest you can say that by, for example, 1648 they were out, with Savoy it's harder to tell. Hell, the whole point of getting Sicily (and then Sardinia) was to get, like Brandenburg-Prussia, a kingdom title without stepping on the Emperor's toes.
Unlike the rest of Italy, Savoy could not state the obvious and tell the Emperor that he has lost his influence with them due to having a big blue neighbor right next to them and requiring some backing in case some frog king got a case of BBB-itis.
Exactly! Which, in game terms, means wanting the Emperor to be CtW'd if France came knocking.
Except that by that time it was less the Emperor protecting a subject and more of an actual alliance.
Can austrians form germany now? The hapsburgs can lose the imperial crown but surely they would still like to unite the germans?
Elaborate with argument.
What if king of Bohemia is emperor?
King of Italy?
Also, as I already pointed out in a number of historical cases, the king/emperor was not in fact the strongest land lord in empire/kingdom, yet they were ranked higher.
Also nothing in game prevents you from stopming HRE emperor into ground as many times as you desire as member of HRE, but HRE doesn`t collapse, nor you get out, which, is how it should be, as long as you don`t actually work on destroying empire.
The whole "Is HRE = Germany" question only serves to sidetrack the debate at this point.
Of all the nation-forming decisions out there, creating Germany is by far the most obvious example of something you were simply not allowed to do within the legal constraints of the HRE. A different process using game mechanics to become hereditary emperor of (greater) Germany within the framework of the empire does exist, and it's called imperial reforms.
The idea that a prince of the HRE should be able to lay claim to most of its territories as his personal fief, as well as the title of hereditary King of Germany, while still remaining part of the empire in a somewhat meaningful form, is frankly silly.
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Perhaps but making Germany automatically GTFO from HRE is forced.
The issue is more that imperial dynamics as a whole are weird. While you only REALLY have power over electors after the last reforms, the fact is that those vassalizations should possibly come before BUT be VERY reliant on REAL power of the emperor. A 3 province country passing reforms is simply ridiculous.
Electors should be more rebelious and rely more on external interference to put emperor in check.
The issue is more that imperial dynamics as a whole are weird. While you only REALLY have power over electors after the last reforms, the fact is that those vassalizations should possibly come before BUT be VERY reliant on REAL power of the emperor. A 3 province country passing reforms is simply ridiculous.
Electors should be more rebelious and rely more on external interference to put emperor in check.
It helps them get conquered and culture converted, as is proper.
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Let's make the game more logically consistent.
1. Hordes are nerfed to hell in this game because most of them failed. The design is "reform or die because history", despite the inaccuracy of the logic.
2. All instances of the holy roman empire failed by 1821.
3. Therefore, the HRE should generally fail "because history".
Actually no, that wouldn't be very fun. The HRE does need something to help its pacing though, it's one of the more annoying places to play right now unless you really like eggshells or go there late, and even in the latter case it gets a fairy magic shield of garbage bs (IE being unable to dismantle it because the game won't let you declare war).
There's no reason forming any one nation would necessarily disband it outright in alternative history though.
1. Hordes are nerfed to hell in this game because most of them failed. The design is "reform or die because history", despite the inaccuracy of the logic.
2. All instances of the holy roman empire failed by 1821.
3. Therefore, the HRE should generally fail "because history".
Actually no, that wouldn't be very fun. The HRE does need something to help its pacing though, it's one of the more annoying places to play right now unless you really like eggshells or go there late, and even in the latter case it gets a fairy magic shield of garbage bs (IE being unable to dismantle it because the game won't let you declare war).
There's no reason forming any one nation would necessarily disband it outright in alternative history though.
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How is it forced? You are never forced to become Germany. The de facto implications of unilaterally declaring yourself hereditary king of Germany and all German lands, however, are impossible to reconcile with remaining a prince of the HRE.
You're effectively taking an action that places your realm outside the laws of the empire, and the sensible way to represent this in gameplay is to kick you out of the HRE.
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But why shouldn´t electors gravitate around you like thye did with Prússia in 1870?
Germany GTFO doesn´t make sense if it´s the strongest nation or emperor itself. Again, the whole notion of a title is meaningless if it has no power behind it.
Germany GTFO doesn´t make sense if it´s the strongest nation or emperor itself. Again, the whole notion of a title is meaningless if it has no power behind it.
The land belonging to the Kingdom of Germany makes like 75% of the lands of the HRE.
Titles meaningless ? Are you serious ?
Tell me why in 1848 the Romanians in Transylvania and the Croats in Croatia didn`t backstab both the Hungarians and the Austrians and fight for independence ?
Maybe it has something to do that they considered themselves subjects of the Habsburg Emperor and by extension he was the rightful ruler of those lands ?
So if in the 19th century heraldry was that important you want to tell me in earlier years it wasn`t ?
If you are the Elector of Brandenburg you are just going to sit on your behind if some upstart to the west of you calls himself King of Germany ? That by extension entails de jure right of your lands, not responding to that will be a huge prestige blow to all princes in the area of the Kingdom of Germany and to the Emperor himself.
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