Forming Germany should delete the HRE

[Zehir]

hannover and prussia are exempt from this I take?

Prussia was formed by the elector Brandenburg, and it raised him to the King rank.

 

[Kapitalisti]

prussia had kind of a deal with the emperor, because the emperor needed military help, he gave brandenburg/prussia the kinddom title in exchange. but this things cannot be portrait in game because it was a special case

Therefore it's good that Electors can become kings.

 

[arctus]

Therefore it's good that Electors can become kings.

in game non-electors cannot become kings? or are we talking about real history?

 

[petertel123]

So, the problem is the name and the flag? That Prussia/Hanza/whatever becomes the size needed to form germany is no problem at all, as long as there is no change of flag?

Emperor can be whatever on words. Emperors didn`t really own most of Germany directly. It makes absolute sence to centralise at lest some of the domain, You might know, that France and GB were not centralised in a single step.

In fact, turning HRE into a commonwealth of larger parts, makes perfect sence. Like GB was a union of 3 (or 4) crowns, Emperor becoming king of Germany, and having another 2-3 kigdoms occupy most of HRE makes perfect sence.

Why not re-read the post and try answering point by point?
I see at least 4 good points, of which, none did you even bother to dismiss.

Also, can you ,at least, justify why should forming Prussia as non-elector force you out of HRE?

I dont think you fully understand. The emperor WAS the king of germany. Historically speaking there was nothing to form, no title to take because it was already his.
Similarly, proclaiming yourself king of germany as another member of the HRE is a direct assault on the emperor, because you are usurping on of his titles, being kicked out of the HRE is the only logical consequence

 

[aitaituo]

in game non-electors cannot become kings? or are we talking about real history?

Wiz has said the HRE Princes are locked at Duke tier unless they are Electors or the Emperor.

 

[Shatterfury]

Germany is still smaller than France.

"HRE was Germany" is nonsence. Germany and HRE are administrative units. The fact that HRE was seen as a state with German culture is alredy represented.
There were dosens other administrative units inside HRE, that were not called Germany, and yet, the existance of HRE didn`t prevent their existance.

Forming Germany doesn`t give you any cores, you must be playing mods.

Ok, then why not simply come up with 2 kindoms for north Germany, kingdom of Pomerania and i don`t know, Westphalia. Does it changes a thing?

It`s not nonsense, HRE was Germany for common people.

You are running into a huge problem because the HRE Emperor was also king of Germany.

What sane Emperor would give up the crown of Germany and without the crown that person would have no legitimacy in claiming to rule over Germany.
What do you do ? Make only the Emperor able to raise his realm up to kingdom status by making his realm Germany ?

That would be unfair as hell.

The thing is that it must be a monarchy that attempts to claim the crown of Germany, duh, and without beating the s - - t out the Emperor you will not get it.
An Emperor who lost the crown of Germany as part of an armed conflict in no Emperor at all.

So, we have Germany formable only by the Emperor or we set it up in a way that HRE is already dismantled or it will be dismembered when you occupy the Emperor`s capital and you click the decision to form Germany ?

Pomerania already exists, Westphalia shouldn`t exist because it is unhistorical and it overlaps with Hannover, who in my opinion is enough for that area.

 

[petertel123]

I thought the deal with prussia (IRL) was that prussia itself was outside of the HRE and as such it was okay (not actually a kingdom within the HRE), which is why it couldnt become the kingdom of brandenburg

 

[arctus]

I thought the deal with prussia (IRL) was that prussia itself was outside of the HRE and as such it was okay (not actually a kingdom within the HRE), which is why it couldnt become the kingdom of brandenburg

thats true, also the reason why the king has to call himself king in prussia and not king of prussia. i am still wondering why poland was fine with all this, since prussia was kind of a vassal to them

 

[1alexey]

if thats the case, the option to form germany when you have the required provinces for that should be deleted at all maybe. well, if i was german at that time and heard someone founded a kingdom of germany while hre still exists, well thats just nonsense.

Exactly. Either we agree that Germany is just another name of HRE, and thus the existance of formable Germany tag makes no sence, or, by allowing the option to form Germany, we already agree that Geramany is not HRE, but a separate entety.

I dont think you fully understand. The emperor WAS the king of germany. Historically speaking there was nothing to form, no title to take because it was already his.
Similarly, proclaiming yourself king of germany as another member of the HRE is a direct assault on the emperor, because you are usurping on of his titles, being kicked out of the HRE is the only logical consequence

I`m pretty sure I fully understand. If direct assault on the empreror always resulted in being booted from HRE, HRE wouldn`t exist before Napoleonic wars.

It`s not nonsense, HRE was Germany for common people.

read the above.

You are running into a huge problem because the HRE Emperor was also king of Germany.

Nothing unsolvable.

What sane Emperor would give up the crown of Germany and without the crown that person would have no legitimacy in claiming to rule over Germany.
What do you do ? Make only the Emperor able to raise his realm up to kingdom status by making his realm Germany ?

That would be unfair as hell.

The emperor is elected by electors. "King of Germany" is nothing more than a honorary title in 1444. There is no requirement to own even a decent part of Germany, otherwise we wouldn`t see Bohemia being emperor.

The thing is that it must be a monarchy that attempts to claim the crown of Germany, duh, and without beating the s - - t out the Emperor you will not get it.
An Emperor who lost the crown of Germany as part of an armed conflict in no Emperor at all.

It was perfectly possible to beat emperor and repain part of HRE. See Prussia and Silesian wars.

So, we have Germany formable only by the Emperor or we set it up in a way that HRE is already dismantled or it will be dismembered when you occupy the Emperor`s capital and you click the decision to form Germany ?

We can have Germany formable like it is in the current game. HRE can`t form Germany, but anybody that is not HRE-tag can, if owns the provinces.
Germany can function similar to Bohemia, be just another kingom in HRE, like it is now.

thats true, also the reason why the king has to call himself king in prussia and not king of prussia.

Actually that was due to Frederic not having all the kingdom of Prussia. After partition, the name changed to reflect fullness.

i am still wondering why poland was fine with all this, since prussia was kind of a vassal to them

Prussia ceased being vassal of them, when Poland was in cossac rebelions after 1648, and was in no position to contest anything. In fact, vassalage was given up, for some help and not having to fight another front, as Poland was already at war with Russia, Cossacs and Krimea, and was loosing.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Forming Germany will pull you out of HRE in 1.12 (and make you Empire rank if you have CS). It's also much harder.

What has changed to the requirements?

 

[Shatterfury]

I thought the deal with prussia (IRL) was that prussia itself was outside of the HRE and as such it was okay (not actually a kingdom within the HRE), which is why it couldnt become the kingdom of brandenburg

Spot on, The electors named themselves kings IN Prussia rather than kings of Brandenburg....one of the most retard things to do but logical if you take heraldry into consideration.

This was one of the reasons that Brandenburg-Prussia become the kingdom of Prussia rather than Kingdom of Brandenburg since the majority of the the strength of what we know as Kingdom of Prussia come from the the lands of Brandenburg itself.

 

[arctus]

Forming Germany will pull you out of HRE in 1.12 (and make you Empire rank if you have CS). It's also much harder.

i am curious, where this changes planned before this thread or after reading it?

 

[Shatterfury]

The emperor is elected by electors. "King of Germany" is nothing more than a honorary title in 1444. There is no requirement to own even a decent part of Germany, otherwise we wouldn`t see Bohemia being emperor.

It was perfectly possible to beat emperor and repain part of HRE. See Prussia and Silesian wars.

We can have Germany formable like it is in the current game. HRE can`t form Germany, but anybody that is not HRE-tag can, if owns the provinces.
Germany can function similar to Bohemia, be just another kingom in HRE, like it is now.

You are taking a huge piss over what the Kingdom of Germany ment to the common people and how important heraldry was back then.

The Emperor was crown KIng of Germany, there can be no Kingdom of Germany if there is still an emperor, just owning a bunch of lands in Brandenburg, Saxony and Franconia will not change that.

Heraldry was important to people back then, it was international law at that time and there was a rightful ruler of Germany and that was the Emperor who was crowned King of Germany.

The Elector of Brandenburg was still King IN Prussia up until the dissolution of the HRE when he became King OF Prussia.

Germany is not 10 provinces chosen by Paradox, if Kingdom of Germany would have become a reality it would mean that the person holding the crown would be the the jure ruler of almost all HRE minus Bohemia, Italian lands and the lands of the old Kingdom of Burgundy.
You can`t ignore this.

 

[grommile]

The Elector of Brandenburg was still King IN Prussia up until the dissolution of the HRE when he became King OF Prussia.

Actually, Old Fritz started calling himself King of Prussia after he took West Prussia from Poland in 1772 (the First Partition) - the Empire didn't dissolve until 1806.

 

[1alexey]

You are taking a huge piss over what the Kingdom of Germany ment to the common people and how important heraldry was back then.

The Emperor was crown KIng of Germany, there can be no Kingdom of Germany if there is still an emperor, just owning a bunch of lands in Brandenburg, Saxony and Franconia will not change that.

If king of Germany is just a title of emperor, how come there is a requirement to own a bunch of HRE provinces to become king of Germany in game?

Either kingdom of Germany is just a title of Emperor, and should not be present as a tag, and thus differnt new formable tags introduced, or kingdom of Germany is an actual territory you own, and the title that emperor is crowned with, can be changed to accomodate.

Heraldry was important to people back then, it was international law at that time and there was a rightful ruler of Germany and that was the Emperor who was crowned King of Germany.

The international law is, as we can clearly see today, can be bended the way powerfull people want it to be. Heraldy was, unsurprisingly, bended same way.

 

[arctus]

Actually, Old Fritz started calling himself King of Prussia after he took West Prussia from Poland in 1772 (the First Partition) - the Empire didn't dissolve until 1806.

by this date the emperor had no real unfluence other than his habsburg home-lands and the title emperor was more a relict from past times. so it was no big deal i guess

 

[Shatterfury]

Actually, Old Fritz started calling himself King of Prussia after he took West Prussia from Poland in 1772 (the First Partition) - the Empire didn't dissolve until 1806.

He did ? Well by then Prussia could stand up to Austria and Austria wouldn`t risk war with a nation that hold it`s ground. It was their mistake for tolerating the Hohenzollerns calling themselves Kings in Prussia in the first place.

 

[aitaituo]

i am curious, where this changes planned before this thread or after reading it?

I don't think this is the first thread about the weirdness of a 10 province Prince forming Germany with no direct backlash.

 

[Shatterfury]

If king of Germany is just a title of emperor, how come there is a requirement to own a bunch of HRE provinces to become king of Germany in game?

Either kingdom of Germany is just a title of Emperor, and should not be present as a tag, and thus differnt new formable tags introduced, or kingdom of Germany is an actual territory you own, and the title that emperor is crowned with, can be changed to accomodate.

The international law is, as we can clearly see today, can be bended the way powerfull people want it to be. Heraldy was, unsurprisingly, bended same way.

You can`t ignore that it is possible to own all that lands with any in-hre tag. Besides, you will probably beat emperor more than once in war to get there.
So, that you are the "king of Germany" is fiat acompili, and emperor has to adjust, no metter what title you carry. That, is what the mechanic has to account for, not the arbitrary name of the state.

Grab a HRE map, cut out Bohemia, Switzerland, Savoy, the rest is land that belongs to the Kingdom of Germany.If someone is to be crowned King of Germany then that is the de jure land they are entitled to.

I have humored you with this discussion about heraldry which you clearly do not grasp and we haven`t finished the previous one, there was no single drive to make the kingdom of Germany a reality because HRE WAS Germany.

 

[1alexey]

Germany is not 10 provinces chosen by Paradox, if Kingdom of Germany would have become a reality it would mean that the person holding the crown would be the the jure ruler of almost all HRE minus Bohemia, Italian lands and the lands of the old Kingdom of Burgundy.
You can`t ignore this.

You can`t ignore that it is possible to own all that lands with any in-hre tag. Besides, you will probably beat emperor more than once in war to get there.
So, that you are the "king of Germany" is fiat acompili, and emperor has to adjust, no metter what title you carry. That, is what the mechanic has to account for, not the arbitrary name of the state.

There is even no requrement for emperor to even be powerfull. Emperor can be as powerless as emperor of Japan, and your state can be as powerful as shogunate, and the emperor is just a puppet of yours, for the time it takes your family to bribe, threaten and force-marry yourself into position of being de-jure emperor.

That, in fact, is also a very good thing, that exists in the game, but PI wants to pull out for no reason.
King of Germany can be "de facto" emperor, but the empire still exist under the the de-jure HRE emperor, who is powerless, but exists as a formality, nontheless.

Again, if there is a Germany tag in game, it doesn`t have to be exclusive with existance of HRE. On contrary, it is great to have both, so it is possible for emeperor to not be the most powerfull in HRE, but for empire to exist.

Grab a HRE map, cut out Bohemia, Switzerland, Savoy, the rest is land that belongs to the Kingdom of Germany.If someone is to be crowned King of Germany then that is the de jure land they are entitled to.

I have humored you with this discussion about heraldry which you clearly do not grasp and we haven`t finished the previous one, there was no single drive to make the kingdom of Germany a reality because HRE WAS Germany.

If HRE is Germany, what is the purpose of German tag in game?

There was none, but only because Habsburgs were undisputed for most of the empire`s existance.