Considering that rivals of the reigning emperors often were elected as king of Germany in opposition of the emperor, an IA hit sounds like a very plausible solution. And with the new ticking IA mechanic, it will be even better.
- 3
- 1
Forming Germany should delete the HRE
- Thread starter arctus
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Other options would be to force Germany out of the HRE on formation or give the Emperor claims on all of Germany's provinces and the annex CB for 10 years. Declaring yourself Germany should have major consequences if the HRE still exists, as it is basically denying the legitimacy of the Emperor and the sovereignty of nearly all the Princes.
- 5
- 1
If you've got the territory to form Germany or Italy, you've already defeated the Emperor in a very real way.
- 5
Then nobody's stopping you from declaring yourself Germany and making it bureaucratically official?
- 7
You only need 10 provinces to form Germany and just 5 to form Italy. It's pretty doable while still too small to defeat the Emperor.
- 2
War is just politics by other means. Managing to get that territory while the Emperor doesn't even try to stop you militarily is perhaps an even greater victory than beating the Emperor by force of arms - it certainly is as big an embarrassment for the Emperor.
The problem is that since Paradox destroyed the Enforce peace mechanic, there's no reliable way to represent the Emperor trying to maintain internal peace in the HRE. What you say does make sense, but not for this game, sadly. So long as the HRE is filled with arbitrary roadblocks rather than actual, fun and interesting representation of its internal politics, we'll have this issue.
The AI really wouldn't try to stop you from forming Germany and chances are that the Emperor would be Germany's ally. :/
- 3
But them borders! You need more than 10 or 5 provinces to make your borders better looking.
- 4
- 1
Those 10 provinces are pretty spread out and taking only the necessary minimum to core them is likely to produce heavy bordergore - and really, with only those, you won't control enough of the german people to call yourself THE german nation.
Did they change Germany's requirements when I wasn't looking? Last I checked, only 1 province required to from Germany is separate from the others. I wouldn't call that spread out.
- 1
Sorry for being off topic, but if you dismantle the HRE, do you take less AE for taking provinces in Central Europe?
Yes, the AE multiplier is based on the province being part of the HRE. Removing provinces from the HRE while it still exists will also remove the multiplier, though the AI basically never does that.
- 1
The titles of King of Germany and King of Italy were closely tied to the office of Emperor itself, to the point of King of Germany almost being synonymous with HRE, and it would be a direct affront to the office of the Holy Roman Emperor for a vassal to usurp one of these titles.
Forming Germany or Italy while not Emperor should give the Emperor two options:
A. Be a bitch and let a vassal usurp one of your core titles. The new King stays in the empire, but you suffer a massive hit to prestige, imperial authority, and legitimacy. There should probably be some mechanic to encourage the election of a King of Germany as the next emperor, as it represents the real power in the Empire, and any Emperor who lets it go doesn't deserve any of his titles. Really, the only reason to choose this is if you are extremely weak and have no chance of taking on the upstart king.
B. Preserve your integrity and jettison the new king (but not his provinces) from the Empire. You still take a hit to imperial authority, but you can gain it back by reconquering imperial provinces from the renegade. However, said renegade should get a CB on you to claim/dismantle the imperial title, so that if you are significantly weaker than him, choice A. becomes reasonable. A King of Italy could also get the option to remove their provinces from the Empire after a time, as they aren't the heart of the HRE.
Forming Germany or Italy while not Emperor should give the Emperor two options:
A. Be a bitch and let a vassal usurp one of your core titles. The new King stays in the empire, but you suffer a massive hit to prestige, imperial authority, and legitimacy. There should probably be some mechanic to encourage the election of a King of Germany as the next emperor, as it represents the real power in the Empire, and any Emperor who lets it go doesn't deserve any of his titles. Really, the only reason to choose this is if you are extremely weak and have no chance of taking on the upstart king.
B. Preserve your integrity and jettison the new king (but not his provinces) from the Empire. You still take a hit to imperial authority, but you can gain it back by reconquering imperial provinces from the renegade. However, said renegade should get a CB on you to claim/dismantle the imperial title, so that if you are significantly weaker than him, choice A. becomes reasonable. A King of Italy could also get the option to remove their provinces from the Empire after a time, as they aren't the heart of the HRE.
- 3
- 1
Note that the title "Rex Teutonicorum" (King of the Germans) which was what the Emperor elect was often called* is not the same as the Kingdom of Germany. THe Emperor never actually held the title of the Kingdom of Germany after Otto I. The constituent kingdoms of the HRE are better understood as de Jure kingdoms in the sense of CK2 then as actual kingdoms.
That means that it would be possible for somebody to claim the Kingdom of Germany while the HRE and without fundamentally undermining the integrity of the empire. That said, it would certainly have been a big simbolic blow to the Emperor's authority and I would agree that there should maybe be a IA penalty if Germany exists and is not held by the emperor (and a bonus if Germany is the Emperor).
Similar logic also applies for Italy of course.
*though the proper name of the title was Rex Romanorum, King of the Romans
That means that it would be possible for somebody to claim the Kingdom of Germany while the HRE and without fundamentally undermining the integrity of the empire. That said, it would certainly have been a big simbolic blow to the Emperor's authority and I would agree that there should maybe be a IA penalty if Germany exists and is not held by the emperor (and a bonus if Germany is the Emperor).
Similar logic also applies for Italy of course.
*though the proper name of the title was Rex Romanorum, King of the Romans
- 2
