Forming Germany should delete the HRE

[TheDarkMaster]

The best system I can think of for this is special formation decisions for Italy and Germany while the HRE exists that are only available to non-emperors. By making the decision, you formally request that the Emperor give you the title. If he refuses (which he almost certainly will as accepting gives -IA and -prestige), then you can attempt to force the issue by war or let it go until the new emperor is elected. If you're given the title by the emperor, you remain in the HRE as that new kingdom. If you get the title through war, then you're removed from the HRE but also have the option of disbanding the HRE in the process, if you want.

 

[Kapitalisti]

The best system I can think of for this is special formation decisions for Italy and Germany while the HRE exists that are only available to non-emperors. By making the decision, you formally request that the Emperor give you the title. If he refuses (which he almost certainly will as accepting gives -IA and -prestige), then you can attempt to force the issue by war or let it go until the new emperor is elected. If you're given the title by the emperor, you remain in the HRE as that new kingdom. If you get the title through war, then you're removed from the HRE but also have the option of disbanding the HRE in the process, if you want.

I agree with you on that except it shouldn't be possible to disband the HRE that easily.

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

Why would you deserve a reward for forming Germany? The cultural union is reward enough.

Because it is both harder now according to Wiz and kicks you out of the HRE.

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Haven't tried Italy till yet, but what is so bad in their ideas? Just curious.

They're not. Italian ideas are great, especially for an expansionist player.

Still shaking my head at the notion that people need more rewards to form Germany.

 

[grommile]

One of Italy's ideas is absolutely useless unless you're the Emperor for one.

An NI set which contains +50% BROT, +20% Trade Power, +15% Infantry Power, and +25% Coring Cost Reduction leaves me profoundly unconcerned about whether the rest of it is any good at all. I mean, the other ideas could all be complete trash and I would still be delighted with that idea set.

 

[BarskiPatzow]

It helps them get conquered and culture converted, as is proper.

That isn't nice thing to say.

 

[Sunspawn]

One of Italy's ideas is absolutely useless unless you're the Emperor for one.

So is Bohemia's and Bavaria's. So?

That isn't nice thing to say.

It is just and that trumps nice any day.

 

[mrguymiah]

So is Bohemia's and Bavaria's. So?


It is just and that trumps nice any day.

You do realize that this patch will make it impossible for Italy to be in the empire, right? Short of vassalizing the electors, they have an NI that will NEVER be used.

 

[Sunspawn]

You do realize that this patch will make it impossible for Italy to be in the empire, right? Short of vassalizing the electors, they have an NI that will NEVER be used.

Again, SO WHAT? It has top-tier ideas otherwise, probably better than Ottoman ideas for blobbing in Europe due to high BROT tradition.

and even Ottoman ideas have nigh-useless ideas.

 

[mrguymiah]

Again, SO WHAT? It has top-tier ideas otherwise, probably better than Ottoman ideas for blobbing in Europe due to high BROT tradition.

and even Ottoman ideas have nigh-useless ideas.

Just because you don't value the effects of an idea doesn't make it nigh useless. I do t care for navy ideas. They still have an effect though. IA will literally have NO effect because Italy can no longer be emperor. It'd be like giving a nation +25% settler rate on "moon" terrain. An utterly wasted NI, not because people don't like it, but because it has no purpose within the game.

Also: I agree that their NI's are strong. I'm just pointing out that impossibly useless NI's still aren't good.

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

It doesn't make sense for an entity that will by design be outside a HRE to get a bonus to IA as part of its national ideas. Much like it would be silly to give Ming an idea for bonus papal influence, or big ship strength to Switzerland. National ideas should be both thematically appropriate and reasonably balanced for gameplay.

Italian ideas being too powerful can probably be adressed at the same time.

 

[Wizzington]

Italian bonus to IA was in fact replaced in 1.12 so you can stop arguing about it.

 

[Suzaku]

Again, SO WHAT? It has top-tier ideas otherwise, probably better than Ottoman ideas for blobbing in Europe due to high BROT tradition.

and even Ottoman ideas have nigh-useless ideas.

Which idea is useless for Ottomans? Every one of their ideas can still be used (with weakest being we reduction). Meanwhile Italy has an idea that boost IA but can't be formed without removing yourself from the Empire. Thus it would be like having a primative nation having a naval bonus idea but because they're primative they can't build ships.

 

[mrguymiah]

Italian bonus to IA was in fact replaced in 1.12 so you can stop arguing about it.

Thank you for the clarification! I'm relieved that this wasn't an oversight. : )

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

Still shaking my head at the notion that people need more rewards to form Germany.

I feel that being kicked out of the HRE and losing all bonuses associated with it is a harsh trade-off for a cultural-union plus a few claims that are gone after 25 years.
The way it is now may be more realistic; the Emperor would never accept another country calling itself Kingdom of all Germans. But from a gameplay-perspective, there must be something new to compensate for the big loss of HRE membership, otherwise all this change is is a nerf for Germany. Especially if you don't only need a few provinces in northeastern Germany anymore. Be it a unique government, flavor or something else.

 

[grommile]

I feel that being kicked out of the HRE and losing all bonuses associated with it is a harsh trade-off for a cultural-union plus a few claims that are gone after 25 years.

Culture union, Empire rank, and rather more than "a few" claims - the German region is huge.

 

[Suzaku]

Culture union, Empire rank, and rather more than "a few" claims - the German region is huge.

Enjoy the AE if you want to get all that land before it expires. The mass claims would be a benefit if they last longer and/or actually ignore the larger HRE AE that comes with it.

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

Culture union, Empire rank, and rather more than "a few" claims - the German region is huge.

To add to what Suzaku said, these provinces will likely be defended by the Emperor (who can call his allies in this case, IIRC).

 

[Sunspawn]

Enjoy the AE if you want to get all that land before it expires. The mass claims would be a benefit if they last longer and/or actually ignore the larger HRE AE that comes with it.

You really don't get just how big of a benefit a cultural union over ALL of the german cultures is, do you?

 

[pphair]

Italian bonus to IA was in fact replaced in 1.12 so you can stop arguing about it.

Glad to hear, but now I'm afraid Italy will be nerfed in other areas with the next patch.