Forming Germany should delete the HRE

[SchwarzerKaiser]

Well, if we're talking about a good player taking the min-maxiest approach then you're right. Forming the HRE is just better.

Still, it's not to hard to imagine a situation where you just sort of started a game with no plan and got a little province hungry and ended up with most of the provinces to form Germany and -200 or more aggressive expansion with most of the electors. That's actually really easy to do as a country like Brandenburg. Forming Germany could be a much more practical thing to go for in a situation like that.

Good point, didn't think about it as I always try to maintain a "healthy" AE level.

Forming HRE is stronger, and has always been stronger, assuming you can actually pull it off. Obviously countries like Brandenburg, Bohemia and Austria have a big incentive to attempt to unify the HRE instead of forming GER, owing to their starting advantages inside the imperial system.

Actually, I think that currently, Germany as Emperor with privileges revoked is much stronger than the HRE tag.

It still seems to me that with the new patch, forming Germany will feel much less rewarding in the long run than going for the HRE. There must be something to make it more worthwhile. Most of the situations you guys have described are cases of Germany being a "consolation prize" because you either screwed up (too much AE causes electors to hate you) or you're not eligible to become the much better HRE in the first place (wrong religion/government).

 

[Sunspawn]

I'm concered about Germany leaving the HRE. I can't imagine that the Emperor would say: "It's okay if you take half of the empire."
Maybe the emperor should get a claim on the German provinces, in order to take back what is rightfully theirs.
Or only remove the capital province from the HRE. All other provinces should remain de jure in the empire, and thus able to be retaken by the emperor.

Forming Germany could be great for countries that are not a Monarchy and/or different religion. A fixed Catholic Empire can't be ruled by a Protestant country.

Leaving the HRE as is already gives the emperor claims on all of the provinces that used to be HRE.

 

[Shatterfury]

So, since forming Germany will a) be harder and b) pull you out of the HRE in the next patch, I was starting to wonder what the point from a gameplay perspective is to form Germany as a HRE nation.

1) Germany doesn't have any flavor.
2) Germany doesn't get any new fancy NIs.
3) Forming Germany will make you lose all HRE reform bonuses and protection (not that you'll probably need it at that point though).
4) As the Emperor can't form Germany, if you intend to form Germany, you won't get a shot at getting Emperor bonuses.
5) Germany is the germanic cultural union... so is the HRE tag, which even gets a unique modifier when formed. Germany get's Increased Centralization for 10 years at best.
6) Forming the HRE will allow you to inherit large sways of vassal land, forming Germany won't.
7) Forming Germany will elevate you to Empire rank, forming the HRE obviously does the same.

So, aside from roleplaying and getting a different flag, name and color, why should a HRE member form Germany if one can try to form the HRE instead and enjoy all those nice bonuses on the way? Italy is a different case, but Germany at this point really feels like it's going to be HRE in worse. Is there any incentive now?

EU 4 is easily moddable so we can rectify any change Paradox makes.

My decision will require 30, 35 cored regions in the German region, be a monarchy, be different religion from the Emperor and have his capital under occupation. Germany forms and the HRE is abolished.
If the player has the regions and is the same religion and/or not a monarchy he will need to dismantle the HRE the old fashioned way.

Once Germany if formed it will grant cores on the entire German region and I will also have to think on a nice bonus, maybe varied based on government ?

Once Germany has control of the entire German region than decision can be taken that grants cores or a free CB on all Germanic lands outside the German region - Prussia, Netherlands etc. - and also the Czech lands in addition with a few French provinces that have been part of the HRE for a very long time - Liege etc. NO claims or cores of Italian lands !

My idea of a German formation anyway.

 

[Sunspawn]

EU 4 is easily moddable so we can rectify any change Paradox makes.

My decision will require 30, 35 cored regions in the German region, be a monarchy, be different religion from the Emperor and have his capital under occupation. Germany forms and the HRE is abolished.
If the player has the regions and is the same religion and/or not a monarchy he will need to dismantle the HRE the old fashioned way.

Once Germany if formed it will grant cores on the entire German region and I will also have to think on a nice bonus, maybe varied based on government ?

Once Germany has control of the entire German region than decision can be taken that grants cores or a free CB on all Germanic lands outside the German region - Prussia, Netherlands etc. - and also the Czech lands in addition with a few French provinces that have been part of the HRE for a very long time - Liege etc. NO claims or cores of Italian lands !

My idea of a German formation anyway.

Free cores is too OP - it works in M&T because of the crazy coring costs and times and the auto-core mechanic, but in vanilla it will be way OP.

 

[Bragi]

Actually und completely besides this discussion, there should be available way more tagchanges like the Iberian Wedding. Great Britain for example. Not exactly like the IW, but less tag changes like "conquer/integrate these Scottish provinces, then click a button, because thats how UK was founded".

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

EU 4 is easily moddable so we can rectify any change Paradox makes.

My decision will require 30, 35 cored regions in the German region, be a monarchy, be different religion from the Emperor and have his capital under occupation. Germany forms and the HRE is abolished.
If the player has the regions and is the same religion and/or not a monarchy he will need to dismantle the HRE the old fashioned way.

Once Germany if formed it will grant cores on the entire German region and I will also have to think on a nice bonus, maybe varied based on government ?

Once Germany has control of the entire German region than decision can be taken that grants cores or a free CB on all Germanic lands outside the German region - Prussia, Netherlands etc. - and also the Czech lands in addition with a few French provinces that have been part of the HRE for a very long time - Liege etc. NO claims or cores of Italian lands !

My idea of a German formation anyway.

Oh, I'll mod that stuff anyway. Giving Germany a unique government type and such (should work well with parliament mechanics). I'm just posting here to address possible issues in vanilla (if you can call that an issue).

 

[Shatterfury]

Oh, I'll mod that stuff anyway. Giving Germany a unique government type and such (should work well with parliament mechanics). I'm just posting here to address possible issues in vanilla (if you can call that an issue).

Ahh...do share those changes once you make them, maybe two government types ? One for Republics one for Monarchies ?

Free cores is too OP - it works in M&T because of the crazy coring costs and times and the auto-core mechanic, but in vanilla it will be way OP.

Slagging through coring like 30 HRE provinces has to have some pros, cores on the entire German region is too much ?

 

[grommile]

Sorta off topic but what really wish is AI nations actually leaving the HRE/removing provinces from it.

There was a patch where emperor-hating external AI countries would remove provinces from the HRE. It, um, didn't work out so good (among other things, it rendered the Imperial Ban CB basically worthless, and the Imperial Liberation CB very nearly so).

 

[Beagá]

Welll what I´d suggest in the end is for Germany to get a bônus to be Emperor by being Germany and have an option to leave at any time.

I doubt any sane player would prefer to leave the empire. And if Áustria wanted to control said country from becoming Germany it should have done that loooong ago.

So ultimatedly the only real issue to me is if it´s too easy to form Germany itself.

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Actually, I think that currently, Germany as Emperor with privileges revoked is much stronger than the HRE tag.

I agree, and I think this "have your cake and eat it too"-situation was probably a major factor in the decision to make forming Germany be incompatible with remaining in the empire.

Actually, I think that currently, Germany as Emperor with privileges revoked is much stronger than the HRE tag.
It still seems to me that with the new patch, forming Germany will feel much less rewarding in the long run than going for the HRE.

Maybe, but why is this a problem? If you feel that forming HRE is rewarding, go form the HRE

 

[1alexey]

You are taking a piss over medieval history AGAIN.

Prussia, Austria and Russia took land from Poland, they didn`t name themselves Poland.


I will YET again state the obvious, if someone declares himself King of Germany he will be at war with the entire HRE, the title of King of Germany is the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire.

The Emperor will not accept his most important title to be usurped, without the title of King of Germany he is no Emperor.

No amount of mental masturbation will change the simple fact that no one thought of forming the Kingdom of Germany because HRE WAS (Greater) Germany.

Paradox has shown outstanding flexibility by even allowing HRE and Germany to coexist.Those two entities didn`t coexist in history, want to guess why ?

Actually, after 1816, the Russian Czar recreated the kingdom of Poland title for himself, notably, "pissing" over his obligations to not to do so.
Yes, he did call it Czardom of Poland, and he did call himself Czar of Poland, as one of his lesser titles.

So, actually you`re the only one taking piss and mentally mastrubating.

Now, I want to hear what you haven`t been able to communicate for at least 3 answers: What is the emperor going to do, aside from being very angry, if he already lost the war, and can do nothing to stop the country forming Germany, and probably later on, coming for the imperial crown itself.

Kingdom of Germany and HRE did coexist at the very least, when HRE was a union of 3 kingdoms, Italy, Burgundy, and Germany, quit taking piss over medieval history already.

 

[Sunspawn]

Slagging through coring like 30 HRE provinces has to have some pros, cores on the entire German region is too much ?

Free cores are always bad - it's basically going around the whole coring mechanic without any downsides. And you are talking as though coring 30 provinces has no use besides letting you form Germany.

 

[GamingHUD]

There's a certain sort of logic to the move, but I confess that I don't find the change to result in compelling gameplay.

 

[Shatterfury]

Free cores are always bad - it's basically going around the whole coring mechanic without any downsides. And you are talking as though coring 30 provinces has no use besides letting you form Germany.

Well you have to have some requirements to form Germany and you need a reward but also keep in mind that it has to be comparable with HRE centralisation.

How would you set up Germany`s formation ?

 

[Sunspawn]

Well you have to have some requirements to form Germany and you need a reward but also keep in mind that it has to be comparable with HRE centralisation.

How would you set up Germany`s formation ?

Why would you deserve a reward for forming Germany? The cultural union is reward enough.

 

[Mikalos]

Why would you deserve a reward for forming Germany? The cultural union is reward enough.

because getting nothing but accepting a bunch of other nations cultures for you to blob into isnt exactly exciting gameplay?

 

[Xinkc]

because getting nothing but accepting a bunch of other nations cultures for you to blob into isnt exactly exciting gameplay?

Why would Germany be a special snowflake?

 

[klingonadmiral]

Why would Germany be a special snowflake?

*Cough* Italy *cough*

But to be fair, the Italian Ideas need to die in the fires of hell

 

[Will Steel]

Haven't tried Italy till yet, but what is so bad in their ideas? Just curious.

 

[Christopholes]

One of Italy's ideas is absolutely useless unless you're the Emperor for one.