Forming Germany should delete the HRE

[1alexey]

The whole "Is HRE = Germany" question only serves to sidetrack the debate at this point.

Of all the nation-forming decisions out there, creating Germany is by far the most obvious example of something you were simply not allowed to do within the legal constraints of the HRE. A different process using game mechanics to become hereditary emperor of (greater) Germany within the framework of the empire does exist, and it's called imperial reforms.

The idea that a prince of the HRE should be able to lay claim to most of its territories as his personal fief, as well as the title of hereditary King of Germany, while still remaining part of the empire in a somewhat meaningful form, is frankly silly.

Well, here is a problem, everybody cares if the prince actually, de-facto owns most of the German the land, repeadedly beated, humiliated, and grabbed land from Emperor, due to insane AE you get from conquering HRE land.
However, with the former in mind, it is silly that people care if the said prince actually proclaimed himself king of something, after beating most of the empire to do so.
There were plenty of "Empires" like Japan, where emperor was nothing more than a glorified puppet.
In fact, HRE emperor can be a 3-province minor overshadowed by Austia, and nobody will care aready.

Might makes right, was also a principle commonly applied, to cases when something new, that was supposed to be illigal, happened.

Titles meaningless ? Are you serious ?

Tell me why in 1848 the Romanians in Transylvania and the Croats in Croatia didn`t backstab both the Hungarians and the Austrians and fight for independence ?

Maybe it has something to do that they considered themselves subjects of the Habsburg Emperor and by extension he was the rightful ruler of those lands ?

So if in the 19th century heraldry was that important you want to tell me in earlier years it wasn`t ?

If you are the Elector of Brandenburg you are just going to sit on your behind if some upstart to the west of you calls himself King of Germany ? That by extension entails de jure right of your lands, not responding to that will be a huge prestige blow to all princes in the area of the Kingdom of Germany and to the Emperor himself.

Rather you tell us, what was the heraldical justification for Partition(s) of Poland, Sweden conquering all it could arroun the Baltic, Russia conquering hordes and Krimea,
the Napoleon`s French Empire, British taking huge trackts of land from France in America, and much more.

Titles are meaningless unless universally recognised. And to get them universally recognised, one needs much more than just hereditary claim.

If you are elector of Brandenburg, and all the rest of German kingdom is already butchered, you might as well go dig your own grave. Problem rather, with the amount of AE one gets conquering in HRE, it is almost a garantee, that by the time you actually manage to get the lands necessary to form Germany, you fought, and won everybody who was supposed to contest your claim anyway, and won, usually including Emperor.

As for your Croat question, declaring independence is not always beneficial. If they didn`t support the rebelion, it was due to their judgement to not do so. Hungarians, for example did attempt to contest, regardless of what titles Habsburgs had.

 

[Shatterfury]

Rather you tell us, what was the heraldical justification for Partition(s) of Poland, Sweden conquering all it could arroun the Baltic, Russia conquering hordes and Krimea,
the Napoleon`s French Empire, British taking huge trackts of land from France in America, and much more.

Titles are meaningless unless universally recognised. And to get them universally recognised, one needs much more than just hereditary claim.

If you are elector of Brandenburg, and all the rest of German kingdom is already butchered, you might as well go dig your own grave. Problem rather, with the amount of AE one gets conquering in HRE, it is almost a garantee, that by the time you actually manage to get the lands necessary to form Germany, you fought, and won everybody who was supposed to contest your claim anyway, and won, usually including Emperor.

As for your Croat question, declaring independence is not always beneficial. If they didn`t support the rebelion, it was due to their judgement to not do so. Hungarians, for example did attempt to contest, regardless of what titles Habsburgs had.

You are taking a piss over medieval history AGAIN.

Prussia, Austria and Russia took land from Poland, they didn`t name themselves Poland.

I will YET again state the obvious, if someone declares himself King of Germany he will be at war with the entire HRE, the title of King of Germany is the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire.

The Emperor will not accept his most important title to be usurped, without the title of King of Germany he is no Emperor.

No amount of mental masturbation will change the simple fact that no one thought of forming the Kingdom of Germany because HRE WAS (Greater) Germany.

Paradox has shown outstanding flexibility by even allowing HRE and Germany to coexist.Those two entities didn`t coexist in history, want to guess why ?

So Italy's NI were changed then?

That is a good assumption.

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Might makes right, was also a principle commonly applied, to cases when something new, that was supposed to be illigal, happened.

This is already covered by non-HRE mechanics. You don't need to be in the HRE to use might to make right (conquer provinces and core them).

 

[mrguymiah]

You are taking a piss over medieval history AGAIN.

Prussia, Austria and Russia took land from Poland, they didn`t name themselves Poland.

I will YET again state the obvious, if someone declares himself King of Germany he will be at war with the entire HRE, the title of King of Germany is the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire.

The Emperor will not accept his most important title to be usurped, without the title of King of Germany he is no Emperor.

No amount of mental masturbation will change the simple fact that no one thought of forming the Kingdom of Germany because HRE WAS (Greater) Germany.

Paradox has shown outstanding flexibility by even allowing HRE and Germany to coexist.Those two entities didn`t coexist in history, want to guess why ?


That is a good assumption.

I think you're misisng Alexy's main point, which was in the first part of his post. There is currently NO CONSEQUENCE for the emperor being nothing more than a vestigal emperor. In my latest game as Apache, with me giving NO influence on Europe other than preventing French and British colonial ambition, Bohemia remained emperor for two-hundred years with only a single province. It had 100% IA for a majority of this time. It was unable to pass a single reform because of it's poor relations, but the bigger point is that Emperor Bohemia literally got shoved around by the bigger nations of Austria, Liege (which had gobbled a third of France), and Pomerania (which had taken all of Poland.). They pushed around the emperor as they pleased and there was no consequence. The AI, as it stands, will place the majority of the importance on their relations with a candidate rather than that candidate's actual ability to be emperor. Bohemia was USELESS as a protector of the empire, yet got elected for 200 years.

There needs to be a much greater responsiveness to simply inept and incapable Emperors. If the Hapsburg Emperor had nothing but Vienna, I very much doubt he'd be able to lift a finger to stop a united Germany from forming. Three thousand men is not enough to stop Germany.

Now you'll say "But the Heraldy of it!" It doesn't matter because the emperor and the other princes have already failed to prevent the rise of this power. And, at this point, if the emperor is so incapable of defending his own demesne as to be so reduced, it's not implausible for an HRE prince to step forward and say "The Emperor has failed his duties as protector, so I shall take the title to properly defend this portion of the Empire." It should cost the emperor IA, but I definitely think it should be a possible outcome.

Likewise for Italy. Unless you're ilucky, Austria will rival you and ally with your enemy at some point in forming Italy. So you'll usually have the prerequisite of defeating the Emperor to become the King of Italy. Again, if he's so incapable of defending the territory, perhaps he has no right to the title?

And my point is not even really just about Italy and Germany. I'm more concerned with the poor performance of emperors as a whole in the HRE.

 

[dragoon9105]

With Tuscany or another HRE minor in Italy its very feasible to Buddy up with Austria and Form Italy rather easily and quickly. Its generally the most effective way to do it as well, Ally Austria and France, Eat as many minors as humanly possible and eviscerate Milan as soon as humanly possible, If Burgundy explodes leave Austria and pick up a different German power or the Commonwealth.

With Venice or Naples though yes, you do have to fight Austria but your also not a part of the Empire.

I do agree though that the AI has no idea how to choose a real emperor. The Emperor should be more limited in his allowance to beat on his vassals as well though.

 

[Rorgloin]

There seems to be some confusion about the relationship between the Kingdom of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was, in theory, the successor to the Roman Empire. When it was reformed under the Ottonians in the tenth century,the emperor was king of Germany and king of Italy. The Empire was therefore divided into two parts-- the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Germany. In the 11th century, the Empire acquired the Kingdom of Arles, more commonly known later as Burgundy. These three Kingdoms-- Burgundy, Germany, and Italy-- were essentially married to the title of Holy Roman Emperor. You could not split them apart (at least, no one did so during the history of the Holy Roman Empire to my knowledge, though they considered it at least once-- the county and duchy of Burgundy were separate titles from the kingdom, by the way). They remained, however, as areas within the empire of which they were conscious.
To give you an idea of how they recognized the divisions, here's a few excerpts from the Golden Bull:

"Then the archbishop of Cologne, the arch-chancellor of the holy empire for Italy, shall be escorted-they being bound to furnish such escort-by the archbishops of Mainz and Treves . . .

(10) In like manner the archbishop of Treves [Trier], archchancellor of the holy empire for the Gallic provinces and for the kingdom of Arles, shall be escorted by the archbishop of Mainz . . .

But at the right hand of the emperor of the Romans shall sit he of Mainz when in his own diocese and province; and also, outside of his province, throughout his whole arch-chancellorship of Germany, excepting alone the province of Cologne."

Basically, these excerpts show that these three kingdoms remained symbolically separate, but were "married" to the title of Holy Roman Emperor. The Holy Roman Emperor was technically King of Burgundy, King of Germany, and King of Italy. That had little practical significance but was hugely important symbolically. The Emperor was conscious of his status as King of Germany-- claiming the title within the Empire or outside of the Empire would have been seen as usurpation.

Even in the 1470s, the Emperor was conscious of holding the title King of Burgundy, as Frederick III considered crowning Charles the Bold King of Burgundy at Trier (the home of the archchancellor of Burgundy, the Archbishop). However, that plan fell through and the title became totally vestigial when the empire lost its remaining territories in Burgundy to France.

The long and short of it: The Holy Roman Empire was not equivalent to the Kingdom of Germany de jure, but it was equivalent to the Kingdom of Germany de facto by (at least) the middle of the period covered by EU IV. The Emperor would not have tolerated someone claiming one of his major titles unless he was unable to do anything about it.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it is a rather complicated issue!

 

[Carmilla]

Isn't forming the Kingdom of Germany basically the player doing to the HRE what the HRE did to the roman empire?

 

[Beagá]

Titles meaningless ? Are you serious ?

Tell me why in 1848 the Romanians in Transylvania and the Croats in Croatia didn`t backstab both the Hungarians and the Austrians and fight for independence ?

Maybe it has something to do that they considered themselves subjects of the Habsburg Emperor and by extension he was the rightful ruler of those lands ?

So if in the 19th century heraldry was that important you want to tell me in earlier years it wasn`t ?
.

Totally meaningless. You are making FAR too many asumptions here. Again there is Voltaire´s quote, but also things like 30 years war to prove it was just a fancy title.

K.U.K didn´t colapse earlier because Áustria played one group after the other, which worked for nominal unity but failed hard to keep it a REAL nation. Almost everyone hated the hungarians. But they also hated the turks and some didn´t want to join Russia.

So they backed the less evil alternative: Austria/ status quo. Didn´t mean that administration wasn´t a total mess and they ALL loved the flag.

Doubt me? Read this piece http://ecommons.library.cornell.edu/handle/1813/2170

 

[grommile]

Doubt me? Read this piece http://ecommons.library.cornell.edu/handle/1813/2170

A marvellous article - and the punchline is perfect.

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

So, since forming Germany will a) be harder and b) pull you out of the HRE in the next patch, I was starting to wonder what the point from a gameplay perspective is to form Germany as a HRE nation.

1) Germany doesn't have any flavor.
2) Germany doesn't get any new fancy NIs.
3) Forming Germany will make you lose all HRE reform bonuses and protection (not that you'll probably need it at that point though).
4) As the Emperor can't form Germany, if you intend to form Germany, you won't get a shot at getting Emperor bonuses.
5) Germany is the germanic cultural union... so is the HRE tag, which even gets a unique modifier when formed. Germany get's Increased Centralization for 10 years at best.
6) Forming the HRE will allow you to inherit large sways of vassal land, forming Germany won't.
7) Forming Germany will elevate you to Empire rank, forming the HRE obviously does the same.

So, aside from roleplaying and getting a different flag, name and color, why should a HRE member form Germany if one can try to form the HRE instead and enjoy all those nice bonuses on the way? Italy is a different case, but Germany at this point really feels like it's going to be HRE in worse. Is there any incentive now?

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

So, since forming Germany will a) be harder and b) pull you out of the HRE in the next patch, I was starting to wonder what the point from a gameplay perspective is to form Germany as a HRE nation.

1) Germany doesn't have any flavor.
2) Germany doesn't get any new fancy NIs.
3) Forming Germany will make you lose all HRE reform bonuses and protection (not that you'll probably need it at that point though).
4) As the Emperor can't form Germany, if you intend to form Germany, you won't get a shot at getting Emperor bonuses.
5) Germany is the germanic cultural union... so is the HRE tag, which even gets a unique modifier when formed. Germany get's Increased Centralization for 10 years at best.
6) Forming the HRE will allow you to inherit large sways of vassal land, forming Germany won't.
7) Forming Germany will elevate you to Empire rank, forming the HRE obviously does the same.

So, aside from roleplaying and getting a different flag, name and color, why should a HRE member form Germany if one can try to form the HRE instead and enjoy all those nice bonuses on the way? Italy is a different case, but Germany at this point really feels like it's going to be HRE in worse. Is there any incentive now?

Well, everything except 6) applies to both Germany and unifying the HRE. The reason unification nets you the additional benefit is that it's (supposed to be, anyway) a lot harder to pull off for most starts.

 

[Willem IV]

Forming Germany will pull you out of HRE in 1.12 (and make you Empire rank if you have CS). It's also much harder.

I'm concered about Germany leaving the HRE. I can't imagine that the Emperor would say: "It's okay if you take half of the empire."
Maybe the emperor should get a claim on the German provinces, in order to take back what is rightfully theirs.
Or only remove the capital province from the HRE. All other provinces should remain de jure in the empire, and thus able to be retaken by the emperor.

Forming Germany could be great for countries that are not a Monarchy and/or different religion. A fixed Catholic Empire can't be ruled by a Protestant country.

 

[Yozul]

So, since forming Germany will a) be harder and b) pull you out of the HRE in the next patch, I was starting to wonder what the point from a gameplay perspective is to form Germany as a HRE nation.

1) Germany doesn't have any flavor.
2) Germany doesn't get any new fancy NIs.
3) Forming Germany will make you lose all HRE reform bonuses and protection (not that you'll probably need it at that point though).
4) As the Emperor can't form Germany, if you intend to form Germany, you won't get a shot at getting Emperor bonuses.
5) Germany is the germanic cultural union... so is the HRE tag, which even gets a unique modifier when formed. Germany get's Increased Centralization for 10 years at best.
6) Forming the HRE will allow you to inherit large sways of vassal land, forming Germany won't.
7) Forming Germany will elevate you to Empire rank, forming the HRE obviously does the same.

So, aside from roleplaying and getting a different flag, name and color, why should a HRE member form Germany if one can try to form the HRE instead and enjoy all those nice bonuses on the way? Italy is a different case, but Germany at this point really feels like it's going to be HRE in worse. Is there any incentive now?

Forming Germany has two huge advantages over forming the HRE that I can think of just off the top of my head.

1)You can actually form Germany and get a German cultural union as a republic.
2)You can still form Germany if the HRE is disbanded.

If nothing else the decision needs to be in the game for those reasons alone.

 

[Castrolol]

Forming Germany also makes you an empire while the HRE members are likely all stuck at duchy or kingdoms.
EDIT: also not settling for grayskin.

 

[Lord_P]

I'm concered about Germany leaving the HRE. I can't imagine that the Emperor would say: "It's okay if you take half of the empire."
Maybe the emperor should get a claim on the German provinces, in order to take back what is rightfully theirs.
Or only remove the capital province from the HRE. All other provinces should remain de jure in the empire, and thus able to be retaken by the emperor.

Forming Germany could be great for countries that are not a Monarchy and/or different religion. A fixed Catholic Empire can't be ruled by a Protestant country.

Perhaps an event for the Emperor?

Empire of Germany
"The upstart nation calling itself the 'Empire of Germany' has formally denounced the Holy Roman Empire.
The German lands will leave the Empire and they will no longer answer to us."

They will regret this! (Gain "Imperial Restoration" -CB on Germany [could be something like break it into smaller princes and force it back into the fold])
There is nothing we can do... (Lose 10 prestige, lose 20 IA)

Then, if you lose the CB on Germany due to not doing anything:

Imperial authority no longer recognized in Germany
"The upstart empire of Germany has drifted too far from our reach. We can no longer claim that their
lands are a rightful part of the Holy Roman Empire."

Curses! (Lose CB on Germany, lose 30 prestige, lose 20 legitimacy, lose 20 IA)

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

Well, everything except 6) applies to both Germany and unifying the HRE. The reason unification nets you the additional benefit is that it's (supposed to be, anyway) a lot harder to pull off for most starts.

That's true, but speaking from a mere gameplay perspective, aiming to form the HRE involves becoming Emperor and getting all those nice bonuses along the way, something you can't do as Germany, since emperorship doesn't allow you to form Germany.

Forming Germany has two huge advantages over forming the HRE that I can think of just off the top of my head.

1)You can actually form Germany and get a German cultural union as a republic.
2)You can still form Germany if the HRE is disbanded.

If nothing else the decision needs to be in the game for those reasons alone.

Fair point with the republics. As for 2), I said forming Germany as a HRE nation. If the HRE is disbanded, of course none of these nations are HRE nations anymore. My post is based on the assumption that the HRE is still intact when you form Germany.

Let's put it differently then, what advantage does forming Germany have over forming the HRE if you're a HRE monarchy? Provided you have the realistic chance to become both (so no strong Austria emperor that would squash you either). I'm just thinking, why would I try to become Germany as Brandenburg for example if I can instead try to become Emperor and form the HRE? Both are basically the same, just that the "form HRE" route involves more bonuses (while the HRE still exists and you're part of it) and vassal inheritance (when you actually form the HRE) and thus appears stronger to me.

Forming Germany also makes you an empire while the HRE members are likely all stuck at duchy or kingdoms.

The point was Forming Germany vs Forming the HRE. Both make you an Empire. Before that, you are stuck as duchy or kingdom, no matter if you want to form Germany or the HRE.

 

[Yozul]

As for 2), I said forming Germany as a HRE nation. If the HRE is disbanded, of course none of these nations are HRE nations anymore. My post is based on the assumption that the HRE is still intact when you form Germany.

Let's put it differently then, what advantage does forming Germany have over forming the HRE if you're a HRE monarchy? Provided you have the realistic chance to become both (so no strong Austria emperor that would squash you either). I'm just thinking, why would I try to become Germany as Brandenburg for example if I can instead try to become Emperor and form the HRE? Both are basically the same, just that the "form HRE" route involves more bonuses (while the HRE still exists and you're part of it) and vassal inheritance (when you actually form the HRE) and thus appears stronger to me.

Well, if we're talking about a good player taking the min-maxiest approach then you're right. Forming the HRE is just better.

Still, it's not to hard to imagine a situation where you just sort of started a game with no plan and got a little province hungry and ended up with most of the provinces to form Germany and -200 or more aggressive expansion with most of the electors. That's actually really easy to do as a country like Brandenburg. Forming Germany could be a much more practical thing to go for in a situation like that.

 

[Willem IV]

what advantage does forming Germany have over forming the HRE if you're a HRE monarchy?

There is no advantage, but everyone can form Germany, while others might not be able to become the Emperor.
With a wrong religion, you can't become the emperor even if you're a Monarchy.

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

I'm concered about Germany leaving the HRE. I can't imagine that the Emperor would say: "It's okay if you take half of the empire."
Maybe the emperor should get a claim on the German provinces, in order to take back what is rightfully theirs.
Or only remove the capital province from the HRE. All other provinces should remain de jure in the empire, and thus able to be retaken by the emperor.

Forming Germany could be great for countries that are not a Monarchy and/or different religion. A fixed Catholic Empire can't be ruled by a Protestant country.

Leaving the HRE is already an option for any member. I agree that it should probably only remove the capital from the HRE, though.

Let's put it differently then, what advantage does forming Germany have over forming the HRE if you're a HRE monarchy? Provided you have the realistic chance to become both (so no strong Austria emperor that would squash you either). I'm just thinking, why would I try to become Germany as Brandenburg for example if I can instead try to become Emperor and form the HRE? Both are basically the same, just that the "form HRE" route involves more bonuses (while the HRE still exists and you're part of it) and vassal inheritance (when you actually form the HRE) and thus appears stronger to me.


The point was Forming Germany vs Forming the HRE. Both make you an Empire. Before that, you are stuck as duchy or kingdom, no matter if you want to form Germany or the HRE.

Forming HRE is stronger, and has always been stronger, assuming you can actually pull it off. Obviously countries like Brandenburg, Bohemia and Austria have a big incentive to attempt to unify the HRE instead of forming GER, owing to their starting advantages inside the imperial system.

 

[Christopholes]

Sorta off topic but what really wish is AI nations actually leaving the HRE/removing provinces from it.