Formable Nations?

[moglus]

In any case the point was, that you can't build something with violence and brute force, hold it together with terror, and then expect it to stay intact when you loosen the leash. The Russians may have wanted to keep the USSR (understandably so - like I said, it was a de facto Russian state), but the non-Russian people under them never wanted to be there in the first place, and they took the chance to get out as soon as it appeared.

no, none of the republics wanted out, actually not a single one of them (the republics that participated that is) had less than 73% in favor of preserving the USSR, 73% was the lowest "yes" turnout in any of the republics and that was in RUSSIA! Also it's fair to point out that the oppression in the USSR was not ethnic or racial, Ukrainians weren't sent to gulags because they were from Ukraine, they were sent there if they were political dissidents, persecution in the USSR was (to my knowledge) purely ideological

also, wasn't the american revolution violent? was it not held together with terror? (the literal genocide against the natives) to my knowledge it still stands strong, and even calls itself (ironic as it may be) "the free world"

and last i checked China still stands strong as a superpower, it was definitely built on brute force, violence and oppression (and it still very much exercises that)

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

persecution in the USSR was (to my knowledge) purely ideological

Wrong. There was also much national and ethnic cleansing in the USSR that were not just for ideological reasons but we are not allowed to talk about that, so I'll just stop there.

also, wasn't the american revolution violent? was it not held together with terror? (the literal genocide against the natives) to my knowledge it still stands strong, and even calls itself (ironic as it may be) "the free world"

The American Revolution was nothing in comparison to the brutality of the USSR and its leaders and the native american extermination was sad but the conquest of Siberia was exactly the same.

They were called the Free World because their citizens enjoyed more rights than anyone in the USSR/Warsaw Pact or Communist China. No wonder so many people defected to the US. Even Stalin's own daughter ffs!

Believe me, in those times, you too would have rather lived in the USA than the USSR.

 

[moglus]

The American Revolution was nothing in comparison to the brutality of the USSR and its leaders and the native american extermination was sad but the conquest of Siberia was exactly the same.

They were called the Free World because their citizens enjoyed more rights than anyone in the USSR/Warsaw Pact or Communist China. No wonder so many people defected to the US. Even Stalin's own daughter ffs!

Believe me, in those times, you too would have rather lived in the USA than the USSR.

that depends on who you are and what civil rights are a priority to you,

as a woman i would rather have lived in the USSR, especially under Lenin! free abortion, no-fault divorce those are all pretty great rights to have as a woman

as an LGTB person neither the USSR nor the US were great places to be during Stalin's reign (nowhere really was in that time) but under Lenin my rights would have been substantially better than anywhere else in the world at the time

as a Marxist freedom of speech would not really be that important to me in a communist society, nor would freedom of political expression, or freedoms of assembly and association

as i woman in the USSR i would have the right to an education, i could serve in the army and hold government office

So all in all, no. i would not rather have lived in the USA. as an atheist, communist, lesbian woman my chances would have been better in the USSR all in all, even after Lenin

and sure, the brutality of the USSR was worse than the american revolution (but then you are compering one revolution to the history of an entire country), and yes all the bad things that happened in to the natives in the US was just as bad during the colonization of Siberia (which by the way had nothing to do with the USSR, that happened LONG before Marxist ideology even existed) but my point is not to glorify either side, i'm just saying the USSR was not "the EVIL EMPIRE" there were good and bad things about both systems, something that is often overlooked (in my opinion) when we talk about the USSR

 

[rokarlufia]

It would be nice if "releasable" nations are possible, that it would be possible to "draw" them. Giving a released Romania Transylvania/Besarabia back, or include the Krim for them... Giving Greece access to Istanbul or restructuring Yugoslavia. This is already possible in EU4 I believe, so will it be possible in HOI4 as well?

 

[moglus]

anyway this was is all completely off-topic, this thread is not the place for this particular debate

 

[moglus]

It would be nice if "releasable" nations are possible, that it would be possible to "draw" them. Giving a released Romania Transylvania/Besarabia back, or include the Krim for them... Giving Greece access to Istanbul or restructuring Yugoslavia. This is already possible in EU4 I believe, so will it be possible in HOI4 as well?

being able to draw the boundaries of released nations would be great. it would also make sense considering that was basically how they did it irl with colonies after the war, just draw some arbitrary lines and say "done"

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

'Life was better in the US than the USSR'...

that depends on who you are and what civil rights are a priority to you,

as a woman i would rather have lived in the USSR, especially under Lenin! free abortion, no-fault divorce those are all pretty great rights to have as a woman

as an LGTB person neither the USSR nor the US were great places to be during Stalin's reign (nowhere really was in that time) but under Lenin my rights would have been substantially better than anywhere else in the world at the time

as a Marxist freedom of speech would not really be that important to me in a communist society, nor would freedom of political expression, or freedoms of assembly and association

as i woman in the USSR i would have the right to an education, i could serve in the army and hold government office

So all in all, no. i would not rather have lived in the USA. as an atheist, communist, lesbian woman my chances would have been better in the USSR all in all, even after Lenin

This is some liberal arts bullshit.

The USSR was an oppresive brutal dictatorship, the US was not.

Case closed.

 

[moglus]

This is some liberal arts bullshit.

The USSR was an oppresive brutal dictatorship, the US was not.

Case closed.

wow, how eloquently you express yourself.

anyway, that is all a matter of perspective, something quite common in history as a whole, just like some people would say:

"bla bla, the mongols were evil uncivilized savages, case closed"
and sure they were brutal, but they also exercised religious freedom, quite progressive for their time. they had no interest in forcefully converting their subjects to tengriism, also they didn't much care about ethnicity or race when it came to appointing local government official and administrators in their subjugated regions

"bla bla, thank god the Greeks defeated the evil Persians at the battle of Thermopylae, what would we have done without good ol' ancient Greece"
you could argue that the Persians were morally superior to the Greeks, their religion (Zoroastrianism) forbade the ownership of slaves, and again, Zoroastrians had no interest in proselytizing, and when the Persians conquered a region the usually left them with their existing power structure, i.e they let their subjects keep their monarchies, nobility, and religion, as long as they swore fealty to the Persian ruler, the Shāhanshāh (king of kings)

there is no black and white absolutes in history

and in history the case is never closed unless we have complete, meticulous, non-biased, truthful evidence of every single aspect of a subject, which we do not.

either way this is not the place for this debate, this is far off-topic

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

wow, how eloquently you express yourself.

anyway, that is all a matter of perspective, something quite common in history as a whole, just like some people would say:

"bla bla, the mongols were evil uncivilized savages, case closed"
and sure they were brutal, but they also exercised religious freedom, quite progressive for their time. they had no interest in forcefully converting their subjects to tengriism, also they didn't much care about ethnicity or race when it came to appointing local government official and administrators in their subjugated regions

"bla bla, thank god the Greeks defeated the evil Persians at the battle of Thermopylae, what would we have done without good ol' ancient Greece"
you could argue that the Persians were morally superior to the Greeks, their religion (Zoroastrianism) forbade the ownership of slaves, and again, Zoroastrians had no interest in proselytizing, and when the Persians conquered a region the usually left them with their existing power structure, i.e they let their subjects keep their monarchies, nobility, and religion, as long as they swore fealty to the Persian ruler, the Shāhanshāh (king of kings)

there is no black and white absolutes in history

and in history the case is never closed unless we have complete, meticulous, non-biased, truthful evidence of every single aspect of a subject, which we do not.

either way this is not the place for this debate, this is far off-topic

In the 20th century, the US might have done some stupid and backward stuff but in that time the USSR killed 25 million of their own citizens.

I am done with this conversation about human rights.

 

[PeterWar]

I could see Fascists France and Netherlands annexing Wallonia and Flanders, separately or as partners in crime.

In addition to Wallonia and Flanders, I would also like to see historically separatists regions like Catalonia or Basque country (Euskal Herria) in Spain, just to name a few.

Indeed, please include Catalonia, there're plenty of historical reasons to do so, on October 6th 1934 the Catalan president declared the catalan state and latter on he flee to France were he was extradited by the Nazi authorities in Vichy France he was executed in 1940.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lluís_Companys

 

[Fulmen]

Denying facts

You seem very biased. The typical "the USSR did bad things, but so did the US!" is the type of crap that leftists like to spout out a lot. As if they were in any way comparable.

Just go ask people in the Baltics old enough to have lived a lifetime under the USSR and see whether or not they wanted independence. And I don't mean those Russian colonists who influence your precious polls, I mean the real native people of those countries: Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians. I'd include Livonians, but the Russians already wiped them out.

 

[Dieder]

Hi,

First post, but wanted to add to the formable nations question.
I second the option to draw puppets when you release them. For me, not being able to design my own underlings in HOI 3 was kind of irritating. Having a useless strip of land when I conquered Yugoslavia or the UK was just super annoying.

I know it's possible to just mod stuff like formable nations, but I for one don't know how to do this.

So in summary,
More formable nations, yes please!
The ability to design your own(drawing) would also be kind of cool.

 

[moglus]

In the 20th century, the US might have done some stupid and backward stuff but in that time the USSR killed 25 million of their own citizens.

I am done with this conversation about human rights.

You seem very biased. The typical "the USSR did bad things, but so did the US!" is the type of crap that leftists like to spout out a lot. As if they were in any way comparable.

Just go ask people in the Baltics old enough to have lived a lifetime under the USSR and see whether or not they wanted independence. And I don't mean those Russian colonists who influence your precious polls, I mean the real native people of those countries: Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians. I'd include Livonians, but the Russians already wiped them out.

i could go on almost literally forever, and i am sure you could as well. but as i said, this is not the place for this discussion, it is off-topic, as i have stated several times already, and continuing this discussion on this particular thread is in violation of section 5 of the forum user agreement & rules. if you want to discuss human rights violations and government mass killings in the 20th century make your own thread in an appropriate forum

all further off-topic discussion of this subject on this thread will be reported to the appropriate moderators

 

[Dieder]

Pity this topic seemed to have gone cold.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a reaction from a dev/someone with more info.

Also, this:

all further off-topic discussion of this subject on this thread will be reported to the appropriate moderators

 

[Cyric313]

Germany had the option in HOI3 TFH to break up Yugoslavia into its constituent pieces. It could also release India, Pakistan, and Palestine as puppets, but couldn't release various other possibilities like the Ukraine. Worse, releasing a puppet gave them ALL of their cores, including any that were also YOURS! Why would I fight and occupy them if I wasn't going to take and keep my own cores? You could do it in advance with a wargoal in most cases, but not after the fact.

It made no sense. The game REALLY needs better peace resolutions, and not EU's gamey "defeat them over and over, and annex them one province per war".

omg yes.. when i played EU i was constantly annoyed by the annex one province system, especially if i was occupying the entire country at the time.

And yes i love the possibility to be able to release different countries both historical and ahistorical, i for one want to annex Norway, Sweden and Denmark then release them as Scandinavia.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

It must be possible to release puppet nations, or for new nations to appear after revolts and independence or civil war, etc. It would be a strange oversight if that wasn't the case, and of course the historical WW2 did have its fair share of puppet states appear.

 

[amalric de g.]

Also it's fair to point out that the oppression in the USSR was not ethnic or racial, Ukrainians weren't sent to gulags because they were from Ukraine, they were sent there if they were political dissidents, persecution in the USSR was (to my knowledge) purely ideological

Really? I can´t post the text, it´s against forum rules.

google Holodomor

 

[Will Steel]

Posting the link is against rules too.

 

[Emp. Theodosius]

At least could we see a Austro-Hungarian reformation, or (a bit more on the ahistorical side) a reformed Holy Roman Empire if Austria conquers Germany? Releasable states could work like the Ukraine. Maybe a Roman Empire flavor reformation for Italy, since Mussolini's goal actually was to restore it. (Mare Nostrum) Also we could possibly see maybe a event where a Tsaric heir revolts and possibly takes the Soviet Union, and reforms the title 'Russian Empire'? Most of these are a bit unrealistic, except for maybe Austro-Hungary, but would be awesome goals for a campaign.

 

[amalric de g.]

Posting the link is against rules too.

Thanks for the Tip.