Forging your own nation

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by Sonny
Can't emperors also hand out kingships? Isn't that what pissed off the HRE when Anacletus II handed out a crown to Roger II ??

Once you reach 3000 post, Demetrios, you cna get a custom title and avatar instead of that junk you got now.

** Enviously derams of stealing Demetrios' avatar **

Well, the Emperor was mad for that reason, but the real problem is that by the time Anacletus II gave Roger his royal title, he was pretty much recognized throughout Christendom as the Antipope, and Anacletus had no choice but to turn to Roger to help him maintain his papal throne. So not only had he usurped an Imperial perogative in the Emperor's mind, but he was also illegitimately attemtpting to claim a supposed Papal perogative. Not that even this availed poor Anacletus in the end. When Anacletus died, Roger simply made a deal with the recognized Pope to retain his new royal title.

Woohoo! 3000 posts! Party time!

*Does party dance*

BTW Sonny, wanting to steal the *new* avatar? You can have the old Duchy of Athens one, but not my pretty new Byzantine one!

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Demetrios
...............................
BTW Sonny, wanting to steal the *new* avatar? You can have the old Duchy of Athens one, but not my pretty new Byzantine one!

Drat!

Can't even get Patric to upload my custom shield MKJ made for me back in August. And now there are flags/banners so I am way behind.

Oh well, who needs all that fancy stuff anyway.

 

[unmerged(5588)]

The problem with dynasties is that they tend to change in relation to the titles they possess. One especially striking example of this would of course be that Habsburgs (even though this was after the CK time period, Charles V anyone?). A head of a dynasty could have several titles like king of this, king of that, and duke of smaller-somewhere. Of course CK models this by splintering off dynasties. I'm really looking forward to dynamic claims instead of core provinces.

And of course the Emperor saw himself in theory to be the sovereign of all Christian Europe.

 

[Norgesvenn]

I have severe problems with accepting the notion of "nation" during the timespan of CK. Which is why I also have problems accepting "culture" as a valid marker.

Nationbuilding is distinctly 18th and 19th century.

Statebuilding, however, belongs to this period. Kingdoms grew larger, claiming authority to tax farmers, building a bureaocracy and forging alliances with the Church along with providing some security in return.

 

[unmerged(8303)]

well then..uh, make them tremble before the norweigan state

speaking of norway..i wonder how that whole kalmar thing will play out. seems to be a hell of a huge territorial claim in a way.

I'm sorry I used the word nation in this thread title..

when I said forging your own nation, i just meant creating states that historically did not exist..

thus you can have a state in northern italy or the like..

 

[Norgesvenn]

Well, I know what you mean, Jaron. No need to apologise.

The Kalmar Union happened precisely because a king died. The dynasties of Scandinavia had intermarried to such an extent that a union seemed like a good idea.

Margaretha I of Norway and Sweden (married to Haakon VI) managed to pull it off in 1397. Her late husband was king of both Sweden and Norway. Don't quite remember how Denmark became involved. I'll check it up.

Now, Margaretha stayed on as regent until her death, but she'd had her nephew Erik of Pommern accepted as her successor already in 1397.

The royal bloodline in Norway was extinct on the male side, and to avoid the civil wars that had plagued the kingdom, the kingdom had also been made hereditary, while Sweden and Denmark still were electoral kingdoms.

Edit: Margaretha was the eldest daughter of the king of Denmark, Valdemar Atterdag, who died in 1375. Her son Olav, already accepted as heir to the throne of Norway, was also accepted as heir to the throne of Denmark.

 

[unmerged(11620)]

Originally posted by Demetrios
Of course with two or more Popes running around on a fairly regular basis, there was often a Pope handy to hand out a crown in return for support.

Well I wouldn't say it was fairly regular to have two or More popes. For one thing, the only time I'm aware of when there was more then one antipope claiming the primacy during the period (1066-1453) was during the Great Western Schism. Not counting the GWS there were only like 13 antipopes in that whole 4oo year time span. And, none of them were contemporary antipopes with each other.

This does bring up a potentially hazardous aspect of the game. Since you can change history... what about the line of Popes? Does any one know how papal succession will be handled in the game, if at all?

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Well the Emperors were originally granted and therafter claimed the office of Patrician, which gave them the right to approve papal elections (or it was just decide between rival candidates if there was a disputed election? Anybody know the exact powers of this office?).

Regardless, the Emperors took this one step further, assuming it meant they could also nominate a candidate and depose and replace Popes if necessary. This right wasnt seriously challenged between Otto I the Great and Henry III the Black (962-1056), but after the Investiture mess, it was a serious bone of contention.

Even so, Emperors did set up Anti-Popes if it served their purpose; Henry IV set up at least one, while Frederick I backed 3 or more in succession against Alexander. Then you have the Normans supporting whichever gave them what they wanted, and so on. So IMHO even if there were only a limited number, it should still be an option in the game, since I plan to restore my rights as Patrician and dominate the papacy like every Emperor before Henry IV did. Make no mistake, when I get my hands on CK, the Pope is going down!

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by BarbarossaHRE
[B................
Make no mistake, when I get my hands on CK, the Pope is going down! [/B]

This seems to be a rather popular position to take. Wonder what everyone has against the Pope? Wonder what this attitude will do to your piety. And what happens when the Pope "goes down" (no sexual references please)? Does not another pope (or two) take his place?

 

[unmerged(8303)]

what! the people will accept no king who destroys gods vicar on earth!

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Originally posted by Sonny
This seems to be a rather popular position to take. Wonder what everyone has against the Pope? Wonder what this attitude will do to your piety. And what happens when the Pope "goes down" (no sexual references please)? Does not another pope (or two) take his place?

If I play Germany, my complaints are many. Any material you find on the Investiture disaster and/or Barbarossa's "schism" outlines them in more detail than I have room for here. Lets just say IMHO its largely the Pope's fault that Germany & Italy collapsed into anarchy while all the other kingdoms were developing into "national" states; the welfare of two countries and peoples was sacrificed for the power of the papacy. No offense to any Catholics, but IMHO, some of the Popes of the Middle Ages were very bad men who used their office to usurp political power that wasnt theirs and blatantly manipulated people's faith to accomplish some very dirty deeds.

Regardless, I think the imperial goal was always to replace the Pope, not abolish the office (impossibility). So if the current Pope isnt willing to play ball, you depose him and elect one who is. The original theory was the ideal situation: the Emperor wields the temporal sword, the Pope the spiritual; one is head of political Christendom, one of the Church.

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by The Leper King
Well I wouldn't say it was fairly regular to have two or More popes. For one thing, the only time I'm aware of when there was more then one antipope claiming the primacy during the period (1066-1453) was during the Great Western Schism. Not counting the GWS there were only like 13 antipopes in that whole 4oo year time span. And, none of them were contemporary antipopes with each other.

It all depends on the period. In the early period of the game, there were loads of Antipopes running around. In the 1066 - 1180 period, there were 12 Antipopes who were around for 61 years of that 112 year period; in other words, more than half the time there were two people claiming to be Pope during that period. then in the 1180 - 1304 period, there were no Antipopes - during that period the Papacy was strong and there was no secular government which could challenge it (except, of course, France at the very end), as the Empire had fallen on hard times and weak rulers. After 1304 of course, you have the Avignon Papacy, the Great Western Schism, as well as two Antipopes outside the Schism. From 1304 to the presumed end of the game in 1453, you have eight Antipopes druing 65 years of that 149 year period, almost half the time again.

So, depending on the relative strengths of the Papacy and and the secular gvernments, it might be fairly simple to either set up an Antipope or appeal to an Antipope set up by someone else...

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Originally posted by Demetrios
It all depends on the period. In the early period of the game, there were loads of Antipopes running around. In the 1066 - 1180 period, there were 12 Antipopes who were around for 61 years of that 112 year period; in other words, more than half the time there were two people claiming to be Pope during that period. then in the 1180 - 1304 period, there were no Antipopes - during that period the Papacy was strong and there was no secular government which could challenge it (except, of course, France at the very end)

Frederick II toyed with the idea, and couldve done so with more success than either Henry IV or Frederick I, because he at some points controlled Rome itself moreso than those previous Emperors had, and was usually stronger in Italy in general than even Barbarossa. But he decided that it would only add weight to the Pope's blatant lies about him being a heretic and even the Anti-Christ foretold by scripture.

He may have changed his mind had he known what was coming; the utterly disgusting "crusade" called by the Pope to exterminate all members of the House of Hohenstaufen, including children, and outright steal their possessions.

 

[unmerged(6160)]

Originally posted by The Leper King

This does bring up a potentially hazardous aspect of the game. Since you can change history... what about the line of Popes? Does any one know how papal succession will be handled in the game, if at all?

The line of popes will change, cardinal elections take place. Strong rulers could "influnce" the election.

 

[Txini]

Originally posted by historycaesar
The line of popes will change, cardinal elections take place. Strong rulers could "influnce" the election.

And maybe also Place where papal seat is.(Like France with Avignon)

 

[unmerged(11620)]

Originally posted by BarbarossaHRE
Make no mistake, when I get my hands on CK, the Pope is going down!

"Parce, frater. Non dico, frater, quod parcas ei, sed tibi!"


I haven't had time to read all your comments yet; I will tonight. And if I can respond, hopefully dissuade you from this bellicose attitude, and overly simplistic understanding of the politics of the time.

 

[Txini]

think that if you annex the pope, you'll have not to wait to see a crusading army in your capital

 

[unmerged(8303)]

oh come on, the pope cant have that much sway!

when frederick barbarossa was hostile to the pope or the normans fought him did europe flock to his aid?

EDIT: although I can see some rulers using it as an excuse for war on lands they possibly covet. "HE annexed the pope; i must invade and annex his lands in the name of God"

 

[Cat Lord]

Maybe if your score in hounour/piety/whatever, is high enough, this could be a condition to ask a king's crown from the pope.

If he accept, you could be in trouble with your liege/vassals.

For sure, this could be fun

Cat

 

[Norgesvenn]

Originally posted by Txini
think that if you annex the pope, you'll have not to wait to see a crusading army in your capital

Hopefully, you can't annex the Pope...