Forcing me to name my long-time allies as Rivals?

[HydroAC]

In my latest Austrian run the game is forcing me to name one of my two long-time allies (Poland, Spain) as Rivals. These are my only choices for two of my two open Rival slots, and I presume I need to pick at least one of them.

The Ottos are my rival, and I've eclipsed England, very recently Muscovy and quite a while ago France. The two other slots are open now that Muscovy is invalid.

I'm not going to do this, of course. Spain has a von Hapsburg on the throne, and the elective monarchy of Poland also has a von Hapsburg. So I'm going to take a PP hit of -1 PP a year.

What is odd is that Poland is #6 (366 dev) and Muscovy is #5 (760 dev). What mechanic makes #6 a valid rival but not #5? Maybe I need a sliver of territory near Muscovy to make them a rival again?

 

[Bibor]

Yes, frankly its moronic I need to rival my game-long friends with 100 trust both ways, because the game says so. Even if I don’t I think they will (don’t know the exact numbers) if they also run out of potential other rivals. The only remedy is to grow so big that you can’t rival them at all.

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

You aren't forced to name them rival. Just eat the PP if you don't want to lose your allies.

I'm not going to say the mechanic is perfect, but it regularly breaks up the Russia/Ottoman alliance and the French/Ottoman alliance so I'm not at all unhappy with the way it works right now.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

There is definitely the distance factor. Muscovy also might be ahead (or way behind) of you/Poland in tech and their army could be larger/smaller. If Poland has claims on provinces you own (or vice versa) maybe that affects rival validity, or if you both have the same provinces set to vital interest? To be honest I don't really know how the valid rivals are chosen so I can't give a concrete answer. It is really frustrating though when your only valid rivals are longtime allies. Although it does give you an opportunity to get a clean break from them and then attack when the truce is over. But yeah, it sucks.

 

[Bibor]

I'm not going to say the mechanic is perfect, but it regularly breaks up the Russia/Ottoman alliance

Which, in turn, makes Otttoman nom nom Russia so hard than after 2 wars its struggling to keep its great power status. So instead of 2 blobs you have to deal with one even bigger one

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

Which, in turn, makes Otttoman nom nom Russia so hard than after 2 wars its struggling to keep its great power status. So instead of 2 blobs you have to deal with one even bigger one

And while the Ottomans are dealing with attrition and a massive army you can take advantage, maybe even save the Russians.

One nation well past its state limit is much easier to deal with than two blobs anyway. Especially if they haven't been able to embrace an institution due to their massive size and million mercenary army.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Army size matters. I've seen a ping-pong situation with rivalry--every time they fight a war they are no longer a valid rival. They recover, they rival me again. I think that should be changed, perhaps the largest army in the last 10 years rather than the current army.

 

[Bouchart]

Institutions seem to matter. Sometimes after embracing an institution my current rivals are no longer valid and I eclipse them.

 

[HydroAC]

Hmmmm...good thoughts here. Looking into it, tech and army strength are likely key factors.

I have the biggest army (55k), with Muscovy 2nd (54K), Ottos 3rd (50K). Poland/Lit are a respectable 69 together. Spain/Arg are 58 together. So perhaps army strength is part of the issue.

As noted, tech is also likely an issue. Muscovy has a 43% penalty since they do not have colonialism yet in 1545, and they won't any time soon since it isn't even present in one of their provinces yet (and hasn't been established in Lithuania). They are up to date on military tech, but are paying a steep MP penalty (good!).

The Otto/Muscovy axis has formed again - blast them. But that's OK. Austria is focused on Europe now, and as I'm dealing with the Reformation and the HRE I do not have time for adventures to the north or east. When I have Europe in hand THEN I'll straighten out Muscovy/Ottos.

 

[Vokasak]

What is odd is that Poland is #6 (366 dev) and Muscovy is #5 (760 dev). What mechanic makes #6 a valid rival but not #5? Maybe I need a sliver of territory near Muscovy to make them a rival again?

Distance definitely plays a role. It's why you usually can't rival Ming even if you're huge in Europe, unless you're Russia or something

 

[iquabakaner]

Army size matters. I've seen a ping-pong situation with rivalry--every time they fight a war they are no longer a valid rival. They recover, they rival me again. I think that should be changed, perhaps the largest army in the last 10 years rather than the current army.

That's some sweet free PP.

 

[Bibor]

I don't think it's distance, but rather presence on the continent.

 

[HydroAC]

I did a little test.

I took a province from Sweden that is adjacent to Muscovy, and they still are not a valid Rival. So I'd guess that the formula weighs army strength, tech level, development and Institutions in this case. But what is the formula? Who knows.

I have seen the Rival-Yo-Yo before, too - and it does give sweet PP. I hadn't paid attention to the factors of tech, army strength, development, and institutions (distance would not seem to be a factor if they were a rival).

 

[TheDungen]

I'd say it is realistic no alliances last forever. That said there should be some inertia to who is a possible rival. They should have to fulfill the criteria for being non eligible for something like two years to actually be flagged as non eligable.

 

[Bibor]

If alliances were not meant to last forever, then let pdox make them inevitably degrade in some fashion. “No more valid rivals” is as dumb a reason as it can get. I would accept it, even, if it was gradual. But its a one-click insta-hate.

 

[makaramus]

If alliances were not meant to last forever, then let pdox make them inevitably degrade in some fashion. “No more valid rivals” is as dumb a reason as it can get. I would accept it, even, if it was gradual. But its a one-click insta-hate.

no it isnt... its 1 click insta hate FOR YOU! YOU HATE THEM NOT THEY!
if you declare your 100 trust ally as rival its you who betrayed them. you can allways tank power projection like AI at 100 trust doing for you!

 

[TheDungen]

If alliances were not meant to last forever, then let pdox make them inevitably degrade in some fashion. “No more valid rivals” is as dumb a reason as it can get. I would accept it, even, if it was gradual. But its a one-click insta-hate.

On the contrary that is how alliances usually fail. With your common enemies defeated the one now standing in your way is your former allies. Alliances and rivalries through this era were a lot more fluid than it is in game.

The one thing I would change is the number of rivals needed. I wish you could pick rivals on a broader spectrum but the rivals had to add up to a certain amount of your own power. So instead of having to three rivals you could pick two ones of they were sufficiently much stronger than you are. And when you start eclipsing everyone you start having to have a ton of rivals to keep you pp up because everyone is so much weaker than you are.

 

[HydroAC]

Well, this is interesting.

I have 2 possible rivals now: Ottos and Castile. But, I am no longer receiving a PP penalty for NOT naming Castile as a Rival. Fine with me...

 

[tman144]

I really wish they would open up who you can declare as rivals, but just scale the PP you get based on the power of your rival. I should be able to rival ragusa as ottomans, but I should only get like 2 PP for humiliating them instead of 40.

 

[Bibor]

no it isnt... its 1 click insta hate FOR YOU! YOU HATE THEM NOT THEY!
if you declare your 100 trust ally as rival its you who betrayed them. you can allways tank power projection like AI at 100 trust doing for you!

It's insta-click mutual hate. Once you become the only valid rival target for them, and the alliance breaks for any reason, you get automatically rivalled. The reason for breaking the alliance can be numerous, half of these reasons are UI or AI Logic bugs you can't account for.